184: Josh Boerman Goes Guesto Mode

[00:00:00] Hello everybody! Welcome to Anime Sickos, it's the podcast where geniuses

[00:00:29] is in the only podcast where we take a look at the four pillars of modern misery anime gaming

[00:00:34] posting and jobs. I am Tom and Anime Sicko. I am Joe and Anime Sicko. Real quick, I got

[00:00:41] it this off my chest before we get into the episode. I was in the park today walking and

[00:00:45] I saw Motherfucker sitting on the bench eating a box of spree. Joe had spree! I googled

[00:00:53] it because I wanted to know if spree was still around and one of the, you know, Google

[00:00:59] now serves you stupid questions like can you still buy spree candy? And the answer

[00:01:04] was you can buy bulk spree at bulkspree.whatever so it's still being made.

[00:01:09] And people say the internet is a wasteland, it's still got the juice. Yeah I thought spree

[00:01:13] was a Halloween only candy. I thought it was like tarot cards and you have to be given

[00:01:17] it. You can't purchase spree. He's eaten spree! Anyway all this is to say we have a guest

[00:01:22] today. Please welcome our guest, Josh Bourman. Josh do you eat spree? I fucking love spree

[00:01:30] dude. So you just awoke because I first of all you're like this Motherfucker is eating

[00:01:37] spree and is the plural of spree spree? Because I just assumed it was spree's. Who is to say?

[00:01:44] I think it's spree with an eye at the end. Yeah yeah do it. Yeah yeah yeah. SPREII.

[00:01:54] No that definitely reads for me as a Halloween candy primarily. Curious to hear if you guys

[00:02:02] prefer the hard ones or the chewy ones? There's chewy spree. I don't see this is how little

[00:02:08] I know about spree. So maybe this is a regional thing. Like in the jungle on the area

[00:02:14] we only get them when they fall off the truck. Oh got it okay but I do not know there

[00:02:18] was a chewy very. Oh no brother you've come into the you've come into a room with a real

[00:02:22] spree head. We're talking a chewy goodness of these bad boys. The other thing about sprees

[00:02:30] is that they had the sort of cousin candy which was called shock tarts. Do you remember

[00:02:35] those? Yes. And then I think they're called shockers now which is funny because it's the

[00:02:40] first and only candy that gives you two in the pink at one of the stink. That's great.

[00:02:44] They changed into it after like the term was known. Why would you change into it? I don't

[00:02:53] mean I just oh this is blowing my mind. Like if I want if I'm like man today I'm going

[00:03:00] to get spree and I hop in my little tutu car. Right. I don't like what's where do I

[00:03:07] don't know if I go to the grocery store there's an anal spree. If I want spree I have to read a book

[00:03:13] in second grade independently and at which point I get some I go to the weird house on Halloween.

[00:03:21] Maybe they give me bottle caps another candy that like where does this I think this just falls

[00:03:26] from the sky on certain days. I've gone to duck.go.com and I've typed in buy spree candy

[00:03:35] and it's taken me to a website called Ferrarra Candy Shop and this is a website where they are

[00:03:41] sharing delight in every bite. There's a description it says sweet meets tangy fun that really packs

[00:03:48] a punch. This will beat the shit out of you. Yeah no it's gonna it's gonna kick your fucking ass dude

[00:03:55] and we're learning a little bit about the ingredients here. This shit contains dextrose,

[00:04:00] maltodextrin, malach acid and less than 2% of calcium serrate, corn syrup, natural flavors,

[00:04:08] cannobal wax, color added, blue one, blue two lake, red 40 lake, yellow five, yellow five lake

[00:04:13] and yellow six. The calcium part is for sure bone dust. Yes you're listening to spree say goes

[00:04:19] the internet's foremost spree based podcast. It's Ferrarra the company. It's Ferrarra the company that

[00:04:28] makes lemon heads because they've always been a mystery to them. Yes and fucking juji fruits.

[00:04:35] Talk about a company I don't know how they're still in business. Yeah no I don't think anybody

[00:04:41] eats juji fruits right? I think it's the surgery right that's what happens. Yeah it falls into him

[00:04:49] okay yeah. No that's a junior mint she Elaine doesn't go to her boyfriend in the hospital right away

[00:04:55] because she gets juji fruits first. That's it. But like to me, juji fruits is like Rishal Rishal

[00:05:02] they made that up for sign fell. Josh what's your deal? This is fun because this is our first

[00:05:12] explicit podcast. You are like podcaster first I would say right as you're like deal. Is that at

[00:05:21] the top of the well I mean for me I guess it is these days. I don't know man yeah my name's

[00:05:25] Josh I co-host a podcast called The Worst of All Possible Worlds. I reached out to you boys because

[00:05:31] you know our shows I think have a fair bit in common we both enjoy talking about

[00:05:37] the way the things that make the world a miserable place to be. We both have a fascination with

[00:05:44] video games. We're both spree enthusiasts you know that's our favorite candy. This is new but

[00:05:51] it's big for us. Yeah it's huge. Yeah this whole concept we've had so far honestly it's been

[00:05:57] a kind of a big done. We've waited for a better idea. No so I it's funny like I came across your show

[00:06:06] because our shows get recommended to each other on Spotify with some regularity or at least they did

[00:06:13] for a while. And so I was like hell yeah I should check this shit out and sent Tom a message

[00:06:19] and then now we're here so we got on famously folks. Here's the thing about Worst of All Possible

[00:06:25] Worlds. Here's my dark secret in general like I can't listen to podcasts like at all

[00:06:32] beacons I'll tell you why because I work from home you see and so when am I sitting still and

[00:06:38] listening to fucking people say words well it can't be while I'm working because I won't be able

[00:06:44] to focus on the words and I'll be like wait what and I'll have to go back. So it would probably be

[00:06:50] while I'm commuting. Well fucker I just said work from home I didn't happen so but I have listened

[00:06:55] to the DSX episode of Worst of All Possible Worlds. It's a delight and partially because Josh is

[00:07:02] opening his soul up to these motherfuckers co-hosts co-host A and co-host B. I didn't just

[00:07:08] I don't care. Jay and Brian it's funny that you said co-host A and B because it's A, J and Brian

[00:07:14] that's actually they're actually co-hosts A and B. That's the kind of brain blast you get by

[00:07:19] getting the quick energy of spree. But anyway you were opening their soul talking about this great

[00:07:27] piece of art that you love that means so much to you and they were like I think that the liberty

[00:07:32] island level is a very bad level and gets days off to a bad start and I'm just like okay these two

[00:07:39] motherfuckers need to go to the lag. I the first time I played Deus Ex I fucking hated Liberty Island

[00:07:47] and that's a true story but a piece of that and I talk about this one on the show as well as

[00:07:53] the first time I played Deus Ex I played it on realistic mode which you should never do for

[00:07:58] your first playthrough of that game because it's that's too fucking hard. Let's just die sooner

[00:08:03] right and guns are shitier. Oh yeah like I mean the damage is much much higher that you take and so

[00:08:11] the what will happen particularly because it's an old game and so it doesn't have any built-in

[00:08:15] quick save is like you'll sort of get there you'll walk up and you'll see your first bad guy I'll

[00:08:20] shoot you in the face before you see him and then you start the game from the beginning because

[00:08:26] you forgot to save. Okay that would be pretty bad that would make it pretty bad I mean it's a bad

[00:08:32] level a bad level to me only valid thing about that is that it is a game that controls like an old

[00:08:42] game there are some games from the past that you play and you're just like this is like slipping

[00:08:46] into an old pair of jammies to me no adjustment whatsoever and then you play Deus Ex and it's like

[00:08:52] all this was made when they didn't figure it out yet. They hadn't figured it out yeah yeah I mean

[00:08:57] even compared to other we're here to talk about immersive sims by the way that was the big pitch

[00:09:02] was I was like I want to talk to you guys about my favorite genre of video game. Can we define

[00:09:07] that a little bit because I'm a huge nerd? Yes, I play tons of games and I don't think I've seen

[00:09:12] immersive sim dropped it's like a subtype of a larger sim and based on how you've ridden in the

[00:09:20] dock I'm getting the sense that like the first person aspect of it is key. Yes, I can answer

[00:09:25] that for you an immersive sim is when you delete the ladder from the pool. That was such a good

[00:09:32] little serial killer screener. That and dropping the well another form of immersive sim I suppose

[00:09:40] is roller coaster tycoon when you drop your little guys in the lake right. Oh, same kind of thing.

[00:09:45] No, but it was real. Yeah, I mean I came up with a little list here of like what things things that

[00:09:50] an immersive sim is yeah an immersive sim is wrench. Yep. Yeah, that's pretty big right you walk

[00:09:57] around and the first thing you see is wrench. Okay, an immersive immersive sim is audio logs

[00:10:03] that you pick up that are on cassette tapes. Yes, that number one. It's a huge player. It's

[00:10:08] like enormous and yes, 30 seconds of audio onto it. That's right. And you leave and you just leave

[00:10:15] the whole fucking thing tape recorder in all just in a room. So I'm your scientist with the warning

[00:10:21] you have to get 30 tape players in addition to the tapes. So yes, Josh, I don't know if you know this

[00:10:30] so you know about our audio genre sickle shot too you reach that to the artist. Yes,

[00:10:35] it's a sequel to sickle shock one which is a less ambitious audio genre when we just start now you

[00:10:40] know what you're fucking right. Okay, and the conceit of that is that I I Tom wake up in a like a

[00:10:46] root and basically fucking rapture everyone's gone nuts and I'm fine. I find the single used tape recorders

[00:10:53] that show yeah before yeah, I'm like it's really convenient that these are all in order like it would

[00:10:58] be so confusing it got like the last one. Oh my god, I love audio logs. It's the fun. Yeah,

[00:11:04] the universe. It's the best. It's like you pick it up and it's like click roll. I have a message

[00:11:10] for whoever finds this. Yes, we never the one thing that we didn't want to happen has happened.

[00:11:18] And it's so much better and a lot of games do this too as an alternative to audio logs and it's not

[00:11:25] the same which is emails because the thing is with audio logs you fucking play that shit you keep

[00:11:30] walking. I'm not gonna stand staring in a computer. Yeah, no audio logs are way better because I don't

[00:11:36] want to fucking read text. What am I literate? Yeah, no, I should split a message up into chunks like that.

[00:11:45] I mean, just you know what it does is it's world building because it's like this is a world where

[00:11:51] guys go out to this fucking radio shack and be like 50 huge tape recorders. Yeah,

[00:12:01] I was gonna say something like audio logs are so stupid when was the last time I recorded an

[00:12:06] audio log ridiculous better remember it's recorded 180 of them in their call. They made no

[00:12:12] exactly which which you have also then take you've taken cassette tapes of those episodes

[00:12:18] put them into tape recorders and place those tape recorders around Chicago. I'm a

[00:12:23] saying right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, behind waterfalls you know,

[00:12:27] I go under the bean under the famous Chicago bean. Yes, the most loud gate. It's the bean.

[00:12:35] You can't be talking like that. I know it's the bean that's Sears Tower. Look, I fucking I grew up in

[00:12:40] Michigan. I went Chicago all the time. Oh, yeah, well then you should. Yeah, oh, I know.

[00:12:46] Willis Tower. Willis Dees nuts motherfucker. Sorry Joe, I feel like I caught you. No, I

[00:12:53] well one that's very good like Willis. Okay, I have no issues.

[00:12:58] The oh, I'm just getting ahead of myself. You know, I'll just I'll say can I jump ahead on the

[00:13:03] list briefly? We'll go back. I just I want to talk about this because this is so key and

[00:13:08] I see this is what sold me on Oh, I understand this specific genre and it's dragging guys into

[00:13:15] a corner. Oh, yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite things about video games and why I think they are just

[00:13:21] inherently funny no matter what it's because like it is trying to do something and then like the actual

[00:13:27] like output you see the stitching and the clonkin and this is very goofy. A good example of that

[00:13:33] is there was a splinter cell where it had co-op. Splinter cell like doesn't function properly when

[00:13:41] there's another guy because you can literally just do this the whole game which is you and your

[00:13:46] buddy hide on either side of the door. One guy knocks on the wall and the other guy strangles him

[00:13:52] and then you do that forever and it's just like this is an example of like the game stretching

[00:13:56] against it's like reality. It's like yes, you are this cool guy but you're like like Scooby-Dooing

[00:14:02] these guys every time. The the the dragging guys into the corner I see where it comes from for my

[00:14:07] sort of realism perspective. This is the immersive part of the immersive sim. It's not just a game.

[00:14:12] It tries to simulate what really would happen and if you like knock out a guy someone's going to be

[00:14:16] like oh fuck. You find him. Yeah, you get in trouble. But I love that what that ends up happening

[00:14:21] is like you just make a mountain of like 10 stars and sleeping men. The mountain of guys is crucial

[00:14:28] and and and sort of like in tandem with that is one of my other favorite immersive sim staples which

[00:14:35] is almost getting detected by a guy who says what I swear I heard something. Oh guess it was

[00:14:42] nothing. Did you did you play dishonored? I have played dishonored. I haven't played the whole

[00:14:47] of dishonored. What I have played is thief and thief two which in many ways is sort of like the

[00:14:53] secret sauce that sort of dishonored that Harvey was trying to find again with dishonored but yes

[00:14:59] go on. Oh, I was just saying this happened in dishonored and I turned off the game because I was

[00:15:04] laughing so hard which is there's a gun in dishonored and in addition to killing the person it

[00:15:10] makes them turn into dust and go away. So they don't leave a corpse. So I there was two guards

[00:15:15] that were talking and I hit one of them with it and he turned into dust and he was like wow

[00:15:21] thought I saw something. Yep. Yep. And I guess not. Yeah, just like this is too fucking funny.

[00:15:28] I'm not my imagination. That's the other thing. I'm talking about like when was the last time

[00:15:33] I wrote an audio audio? What was the last time I heard a sound and then after 10 seconds of

[00:15:38] investigation it was just like must have been my imagination. I've never imagined sounds. Oh

[00:15:42] it's so good. It's so good. Another thing to go back to thief that in immersive sim is

[00:15:49] is certain trademark weapons such as water arrows. I love fucking water arrows. I don't know if

[00:15:55] you guys ever fuck around with water arrows but hopefully I know about water arrows. Yeah, the little

[00:16:00] the I know that the little square dude that of metal on the side of his fucking bow. Oh my god.

[00:16:08] Water arrows I think are one of the single coolest things ever put into a video game.

[00:16:14] The fact that you have a bow and arrow and you can shoot that arrow and knock out a light

[00:16:19] and the light going out then affects the amount of stealth you're able to have in an area

[00:16:24] is such a good fucking idea. And I don't know why they don't do the only game that I've played

[00:16:30] since thief that has basically done that is Gloomwood which is a game that's still in active

[00:16:35] development where you can literally shoot lights out but yeah it's like why don't we have more

[00:16:40] of that? That's so cool. Cowardous. They aren't afraid to be too good. They are. Yeah.

[00:16:47] Yeah, no it's you know what it actually is. Talk about the fucking business of game making these days.

[00:16:52] A studio that does that is going to get bought out and then everyone's going to get laid off because

[00:16:56] the kind of the mega studio that bought them is going to get fucking their venture capital investors

[00:17:01] are going to be like I hate everything. Please kill. They're like yes, yes sir we'll do.

[00:17:06] Or it's just going to be Microsoft which seems to be buying everything. It does feel a little

[00:17:12] 90s again. Yeah. Microsoft once again the most valuable corporation in the world.

[00:17:18] Like didn't we have a whole like anti-trust thing about that back in the 90s?

[00:17:21] It was resolved and it was fine. Yeah. Another thing this is another thing that I love about

[00:17:28] immersive sim. I love this on the list vision vision that my vision's augmented. Yeah augmented

[00:17:33] vision. My vision is augmented. Yeah, we on our day's X episode we got J Anthony Frankie who

[00:17:41] is the voice of JC Denton to do an interview. So good. And so I talked with him for like

[00:17:48] 30, 40 minutes. What was so cool was then he also did an interstitial for for our show because

[00:17:57] in the break like that the between the first and the second half we usually do a little

[00:18:01] scripted interstitial. And so he read the whole fucking thing as JC and it was like I coached

[00:18:09] him through like I directed him through it when I did the interview. We wrote this thing would

[00:18:13] you like to read it? Oh my god, that's so awesome. That's like a childhood, well not childhood but

[00:18:19] like my 18 year old dreams finally fulfilled. I didn't play Deus Ex until college and I was like

[00:18:27] where is this game ban on my life? It's so good. Oh my god. That's so fucking good. So okay this

[00:18:33] is one of the ways that I knew we would vibe immediately as you mentioned that you do a sketch

[00:18:38] in every episode. Yes. So one of our big hobby horses is everyone everyone says they like our

[00:18:46] sketches. We look at the number someone's fucking lying. Yeah a lot of people are not showing up.

[00:18:54] And honestly I said this a time before I was like you know what we should do we should

[00:18:58] frankly do what you do which is the smart way to do it which is to microdose sketches. Oh just

[00:19:05] stick it in the body of the episode. Yeah and not to just do like all right lace up for non-stop sketches

[00:19:11] because then they're turning off. We went over this how rappers are so smart because

[00:19:15] yes they understand the purpose of life is to make people listen to your sketches. So when you put

[00:19:21] out an album you just have two tracks where you fuck around. I have I have in Spotify I'll

[00:19:28] have to send it to you guys. I have a playlist that I found that is just rap sketches. Oh it's

[00:19:34] like the worst thing of all time. No it's so funny. It's I want to see let me see if I can pull

[00:19:40] this back up again and see just how many tracks are on this thing. Yeah let's see. Yes.

[00:19:47] If total time is there hit us with it. Yeah so it is a mix of only skits on rap albums is the name

[00:19:57] of the playlist. There's 32 tracks on here which is frankly not enough and it's 55 minutes long.

[00:20:04] Oh yes that's a podcast episode done yeah I'll send I'll send it to you and then you can do an

[00:20:11] episode about this if you so desire because it's fucking great oh my god hell yeah thank you for

[00:20:15] the free episode idea. Welcome but yeah the thing about that in putting it like in the body

[00:20:22] of the episode is you know it's smack dab in the middle and it's funny because I can even see it

[00:20:25] when I look on the Spotify retention curve that like there's always a little dip but that's okay

[00:20:30] because that means that the people who don't want to listen to it don't have to and then after

[00:20:35] the break it just goes right back up again and the people who like it fucking love it. That's the

[00:20:40] other thing yeah that's a that's the big thing so you probably know this being a guy who you know

[00:20:47] looks like you but you probably know the thing is Joel Hodgson quote from Mr. Science Theatif-D-thousand

[00:20:53] he's justifying the jokes they put in he's like putting in a lot of jokes no one's gonna get

[00:20:59] but the right people will get them that's right that's right that's like that's all it matters man

[00:21:04] that's what that's what it's all about so good so good okay another thing about Merciv Sims uh you gotta

[00:21:12] I just love that you put this on a bullet pointed list yeah gap gun gap gun baby

[00:21:17] yes I said the beginning you haven't played it you are offered three weapons uh to start off with

[00:21:25] one is I think a normal weapon normal gun one is a shock baton that only works if you shock them

[00:21:31] in the base of their spine otherwise it is the enemy alert machine correct please yes

[00:21:38] and I think there are three ammo cartridges for it in the entire game and oh there's more than

[00:21:43] that if you don't know how to use the prod you need to get good I'm sorry but it's a valuable weapon

[00:21:48] I do you abroad stick with the prod prod with the prod just in case though we're police

[00:21:55] but then there's the gap gun which they just say that that phrase like they don't explain it

[00:22:01] he's like Paul who is your brother who's JC's brother right and both Paul and JC are voiced by

[00:22:08] J. Anthony Frankie which is kind of fun doing two I think very different and fun performances um

[00:22:15] both very it's very campy it's very fun but yeah he's like okay you can have one of three things

[00:22:21] you can have a sniper rifle you can have a like a tranquilizer dark gun or you can have the gap gun

[00:22:32] oh so good uh and you might wonder what is the gap gun well it's just a grenade launcher right

[00:22:38] yeah but it is a well it's it's more of a rocket launcher um and it is a heat seeking rocket launcher

[00:22:44] so like you can lock in on you know a robot or whatever and then it goes

[00:22:53] and then once it gets once it's beeping very fast you can launch it and it will hone in on the target

[00:22:58] I love it it's none of there comes across in gap yeah gap gun sounds like you know what actually oh

[00:23:04] so I haven't played this game but I know that prey the most recent prey is an immersive sim yes

[00:23:10] I know that there's a gun in that that shoots fucking the glue gun baby the glue gun

[00:23:17] the glue gun is much like the gap gun in that it fucking whips shit like it's so good

[00:23:23] but like a gun that shoots foam that you can build structures out of and walk on it like

[00:23:29] that's what I think of when I hear the gap gun like oh it's shooting gap out like that's some

[00:23:33] gap on the ground no no there's no the gap gun doesn't contain gap it contains rockets

[00:23:40] gap made it it was designed by gap right yes it is gap's famous gun

[00:23:45] gap gap is actually for short for jupetto it's the guy who also made um you know the puppet

[00:23:51] something yeah yeah yeah yeah uh you know it's it's it's jupetto's gun but you play lies at

[00:23:56] pee that now that's a fucking game I haven't played lies at pee oh if you are into souls like it all

[00:24:02] it is not I that's not my shit but okay we need to okay uh we're gonna have to briefly talk about

[00:24:09] at a later point why it's not because it's not my shit either and I want to just be like

[00:24:13] why do I bounce off this it's not like I'm bad although that it is partially it uh

[00:24:19] but it's not I play tons of games that are like spitting in my mouth demanding I get good

[00:24:24] and then I do right so yeah yeah I mean that's the thing that I love about immersive sims actually

[00:24:31] what of the many things uh is that they are games that demand that you get good but the way

[00:24:38] that you get good at them is ultimately up to how you want to play that game as long as it's

[00:24:43] designed well right yeah um you can beat all of Deus Ex well you can't beat it with nothing but

[00:24:49] the gap gun uh but if you play like gap gun plus minds and then have one halfway decent melee

[00:24:56] weapon that is a viable strat you know what I mean um so I think that's cool I also think that

[00:25:02] an immersive sim is the number 0451 uh that's that's that is an immersive sim that every time I play

[00:25:10] any game not just an immersive sim the moment that I come across the first uh for digit you know

[00:25:16] combination yeah in a game I'll always punch in 0451 in death loop you come across a uh for

[00:25:23] digit combo thing and it's not 0451 but if you punch in 0451 uh cult says a line that's like

[00:25:31] oh that worked last time or something like that and you get a little achievement that's very good

[00:25:38] another thing about immersive sims that at least happens every time I play is I'm going around

[00:25:45] I'm just like kind of fucking around the margins of a level and I like find some way to get into a room

[00:25:50] and it's got like a cool weapon and it's got like a note then I read the note and it doesn't make any

[00:25:56] fucking sense and I'm like I don't know what this means and then I like I'm going around the rest

[00:26:02] of the level and I find like what is clearly step two on the road to that note that I just got

[00:26:08] and I'm like oh oh and they have to like like oh this is what I was supposed to do yeah and I

[00:26:14] like backfill the story of this note and then I'm like oh my god now this note so tragic

[00:26:20] pray has a ton of that like a ton of that and entire areas of the space station that like

[00:26:28] you're not you can get anywhere from the very beginning of the game pretty much some of it is

[00:26:34] like hard lock but the vast majority of it you can get pretty much anywhere you want it's just that

[00:26:39] it's really really difficult and so there's like a difficulty barrier that prevents you from getting

[00:26:43] in but you can absolutely go and go places that seem like they shouldn't even be accessible

[00:26:49] and they put stuff in there for you to find and it's it's so fucking great I love that game

[00:26:54] that's an email reading game right pray yeah is there a lot of email reading in that one

[00:27:00] there is but there are more there are some emails there are more audio logs most of the story

[00:27:06] telling us through audio logs uh and occasionally video logs too oh in fact the thing that makes

[00:27:12] it so exciting is these video logs are all on something called the looking glass which is a direct

[00:27:18] reference to looking glass which is like the company that made thief in system shock too um where

[00:27:25] if you look through this like it's a it's a literal like fucking glass right that you look through

[00:27:33] and it's like you are looking at a 3d projection behind the glass and so it overlays on

[00:27:41] the level in really weird ways like you'll get into one level and be like you look through the

[00:27:45] looking glass and you see what that same room looked like maybe a year ago right because some guy

[00:27:51] recorded a video on the looking glass it's so fucking cool I I love that game I love that game

[00:27:57] I love the glue gun uh I love the gap gun uh and now i'm just talking about things that I love um

[00:28:04] yeah this is useful content i don't know too i think another part of immersive sim yeah

[00:28:09] this is just based on the vibe i'm getting from what you're saying big part of it is when you give

[00:28:15] up uh on your non lethal uh run through and you just decide that murder is easier oh yeah i'm

[00:28:22] reminded of whatever the first remake of the day's x uh what was the human revolution yeah

[00:28:28] that one's very funny it was very funny because he's like am I a machine or a man and like the

[00:28:34] first thing you can do is like get the upgrade that lets you shoot ball bearings so you're

[00:28:40] walking human claymore yes explosive ball bearings that kill everybody around you instantly yeah

[00:28:47] and it's just like funny to have like that moral quandary when you're doing that i loved how in the

[00:28:55] lore the guy who can become a man bomb uh is less technologically advanced of an augmented dude than

[00:29:04] jc who takes like 20 minutes to stop his hands shaking when he holds a pistol out

[00:29:13] like all the all the mechanically augmented people in Deus X are like man i fucking hate you jc

[00:29:19] you make me obsolete i'm bullshit compared to you jc and i'm like i played that human revolution

[00:29:25] jc cannot do half this shit that now Adam jensen is much better at shooting a gun than jc

[00:29:31] dentedness yeah okay here's a question i gotta put to you because this is sort of sort of sounds like

[00:29:36] heretical but i don't know i'm looking at the facts here i got this i got this sheet in front of

[00:29:42] me the eggs heads at hq just handed it to me and it's all it's all here is legend is Zelda colon

[00:29:49] breath of the wild and or tears of the kingdom an immersive sim because what is this game but a

[00:29:54] game where you kind of go around and do your own thing and whatever you figure out

[00:29:59] is just as valid as anything else he's gonna say no i bet and i want to put my reason why

[00:30:05] why no go for it there's a stamina bar

[00:30:08] stamina bar isn't all these fuck yeah no that one sucks the most well yeah if you don't put

[00:30:15] enough points into swimming you got to put points into the swimming this is the thing nobody wants

[00:30:20] to work anymore similarly nobody wants to put points into swimming anymore and they should they

[00:30:24] fucking should um the answer though is yet i would say the answer is no but for a different reason

[00:30:30] first of all first person uh is a big piece of it an immersive sim is definitely a first person game

[00:30:36] because you are being immersed in it as a simulation of like walking around um yeah but i would say

[00:30:43] that a game like breath of the wild is an open world sandbox which is very close to an sim um but

[00:30:52] lacks the immersive first person perspective um and it also doesn't have the gap gun no gap coming

[00:30:59] i got a fire all that i guess they can't believe they love to look at that that's a good distinction

[00:31:04] though uh in a previous episode we've talked about this how open world games like breath of the wild

[00:31:10] and although breath of the wild is not like this many of the the open world games feel lifeless you

[00:31:15] can tell them like you had a huge map and then assets got stamped down and it's it's just

[00:31:21] breath of wild i felt avoided this but this is something that can happen in an immersive sim because the

[00:31:27] levels are designed with more intent right there's little job houses than they're beautiful

[00:31:33] yeah i think that's true i think that like and this is something that if you listen to war inspector

[00:31:39] who is the guy who designed you know Deus Ex um if you ever listen to him talk about his philosophy

[00:31:46] of game design a lot of it is exactly that where it's like what is the point of building a game world

[00:31:53] if it isn't something that you can truly interact with you know these are ideally interactive worlds

[00:32:01] but you know if you look at sort of this state and this is me talking now not war inspector i don't

[00:32:06] want to like say i don't want to put words in his mouth but from my perspective i am always

[00:32:11] going to be more interested in a small world with an immense amount of detail than a massive world

[00:32:18] that lacks detail you know i played and we played for the podcast cyberpunk 2077 which is a good game

[00:32:24] in it's finished state i'm feeling you're gonna say a lot of things i'm about to agree with

[00:32:29] however uh because of the fact that the scope of the game was so big and kept getting bigger throughout

[00:32:38] the development process and because of the fact that the mechanics were so clearly figured out

[00:32:44] pretty late in the game's development even though when you play like phantom liberty which gets

[00:32:51] very close to being an immersive sim the gameplay elements are a lot more clear there in terms of

[00:32:56] what they want to be the other parts of the game feel a little disjointed and there just isn't

[00:33:03] the juice that pulls you through in a lot of cases i feel and i don't know if that's where you're at

[00:33:08] time but oh my god i'm not in big time i'm showing agreement here is my sort of like cherry on top

[00:33:15] of that uh of that correct pile of words for me here's what would make cyberpunk 2077 10 times better

[00:33:24] and it's what we've been talking about levels like the peep the peep the children cry out for levels

[00:33:30] yeah like i know that now it's it's uh fashionable to say that vampire the master raid bloodlines

[00:33:37] is uh overrated because of the incredibly racist china chapter and yes it is incredibly racist but

[00:33:45] that motherfucker had levels it had like you and you were like oh i'm here in new york and it's

[00:33:51] like two blocks and you can only that's the level but like yeah it's fine because you had a clear scene

[00:33:57] like i yes i played it with the there's a patch right like a fan patch that made it doable

[00:34:04] uh yeah and the scope of everything was smallish uh and i don't mean that in a bad way because it's

[00:34:10] just like everything you ran into you're like oh this is important because it's here

[00:34:15] it's like you know a game where you fucking run in it's like you're just getting hit with

[00:34:21] information non-stop you see shit all the time it doesn't matter you have to make it smaller

[00:34:25] when i booted up cyberpunk for the first time and i'm like wow look at this beautiful city i can't

[00:34:29] wait to explore and then it hit me like oh every single building is live like yeah i can't go in any of

[00:34:35] like okay so there isn't an open world like that's what you're telling me basically there are levels

[00:34:40] it's just that you have to do some shitty driving to get to any of right i mean even even

[00:34:46] even red dead redemption too which for my money is the best realized open world game has this problem

[00:34:52] where you know there are a lot of buildings there are a lot of places that just don't really

[00:34:58] have anything uh it's it's largely set dressing and when you go into a place or you find a place

[00:35:07] it's like okay there's gonna be one key item over in the corner that you can pick up and now you've

[00:35:11] done the thing that's in this building right i mean yeah it's like a good immersive sim the way

[00:35:16] that i see it is going to be a fully interactive world where everything has its purpose everything

[00:35:23] has its reason and i get so frustrated when i play other games where you know you leave the adventure

[00:35:29] line and then you go under a little staircase and you pick up some dumb little bullshit trinket

[00:35:36] that you can sell at the shop for five hundred bucks and then you get a little or or even worse

[00:35:43] it's collectible uh one of sixty three and then in the corner a little steam achievement box pops

[00:35:50] up to let you know that you're one sixty third of the way to an achievement called get the goods

[00:35:55] you can't move on to the next world until it's done

[00:35:59] bad shit don't like it well yeah i just have to me and dishonored too and in the moment i was like

[00:36:04] that was the least fun a level has ever been but i'm also like i'm so glad that i was able to do

[00:36:09] that which is like you got to kill this guy and he's in the middle of a huge society party he's

[00:36:16] holding at his enormous villa and i'm like i bet this villa is a little fucking rats warrant i

[00:36:22] bet there's a gillian rooms and hidden hallways and stuff i can't wait and so i'm approaching the front

[00:36:28] i'm on i'm blinking across the rooftops and i another immersive sim staple doing the blank ever

[00:36:34] since they came up with that for dishonored big big piece of immersive sims you can blink in the new

[00:36:39] thief game too which is not very good compared to the originals but they did add blank to it and

[00:36:43] it's kind of fun i love that in the in the good thieves uh mr thief i forget his name it's like

[00:36:49] guaranteed garret yeah garret garret thief uh please mr thief was my father call me like a

[00:36:54] plotting the plotting one x yeah like barely move i love that that means it more fun um no but okay

[00:37:03] so i got onto the roof of this huge building and i was like wow i'm on the roof and i walked all

[00:37:08] the way over the roof to the other side and i'm like huh it's the other side and i blink down to

[00:37:12] like the garden and i'm like i'm in the garden on the other side and i'm like oh there's a door

[00:37:17] and i go through the door and it's like oh it's a hidden passage to the basement and like oh there's

[00:37:21] the guy like stab yeah yeah and i'm just like well that sucked but like how fun that i could do that

[00:37:29] right yeah i mean i think i think again it's one of those design things where it's like

[00:37:33] you don't necessarily want to make it that easy to do an end run right like maybe they should

[00:37:38] have thrown up a little more at least token opposition but it's fun that you can do it i think

[00:37:43] you know exploration being rewarded i think the social component of it is often like that's

[00:37:49] one of the hardest things to integrate but uh if you can have something where you know there's a

[00:37:55] more rpg style like conversation maybe you have to like answer a question or like rollist uh uh

[00:38:01] a persuasion role or whatever you know that can be a fun way to to offer a form of opposition as well

[00:38:07] hell yeah hell yeah that's like how in a human revolution you could have like an augmentation that

[00:38:13] would have jensen be able to tell if someone was beta or not yeah that's in mankind divided too but

[00:38:18] i do love the beta soy boy detector yeah so fucking funny um another thing about immerses since we got

[00:38:26] to talk about is that there's always someone there's always a bitch in your ear telling you you're

[00:38:30] doing it wrong yes you've got to you've got a computer a lady or a computer lady depending um obviously

[00:38:38] uh we were talking a little bit before we got rolling about one of the greatest villains but we

[00:38:43] weren't talking about it exactly we were talking about system shock and system shock too both of which

[00:38:49] are games that you have not played uh yeah we're just like the name because it was like our it just

[00:38:54] fit you know because that was it we're writing sicko shock is about audio logs right right right um

[00:39:01] no show but shodan dude shodan shodan is mommy uh shodan is maybe the greatest villain in the history of

[00:39:10] video games um i just fucking love her so much i mean it's accurate because what is the thing that

[00:39:17] vexes and and displeases us most the computer the computer yeah i love the way that she antagonizes you

[00:39:27] i think terribrocious just does a phenomenal job of the voice performance i think the distortion

[00:39:32] effect that they made was one of the coolest things in that actually uh taps into something that

[00:39:38] i think is interesting about immersive sims which is that for some reason people who come into video

[00:39:43] games from other fields tend to be drawn toward immersive sims um the brocious is arrogant Terry who

[00:39:50] worked at looking glass they were musicians before they started at looking glass war inspector got his

[00:39:56] degree in filmmaking that like there there's a tendency if you come from another art form to come

[00:40:01] into video games and be like how can we push this narrative form to its fullest potential it

[00:40:07] involves using the mechanical tools that are available to you you're not just gonna make a fucking movie

[00:40:12] because if you want to make a movie you'd be making a movie making a movie yeah that's uh

[00:40:17] that's why i'm against generally speaking any cutscene like just like the the cadence of like

[00:40:24] all right now here's a long cutscene uh to do everything just because like it's a movie i don't care

[00:40:30] yeah i agree except for when a tio coach him uh he can do anything he wants but sorry

[00:40:37] but he also has like two hours like he really takes his time with it yeah the ending of

[00:40:43] uh of death stranding is like a full oh god yeah we yeah good lord but like i play in yakuza

[00:40:51] infinite wealth and like my wife describes it as like you're playing a game but then like

[00:40:56] sometimes you have to watch your show yeah oh actually you know what no yakuza is allowed to get

[00:41:02] away with it too those are the two yeah that's true because like i just got to the point spoiler

[00:41:07] we're curious stops having his hair do be like that and i'm just like oh fucking thank god this made

[00:41:14] it all worth it like seeing him slick back you say you called do you think this is slick back this

[00:41:19] is pushback seeing him pushback is here yeah yeah it's like okay fucking finally we're back baby

[00:41:26] uh no but i the point you're making that people who are outside of the

[00:41:32] medium coming in and making it better i knew that even when i didn't know that i knew that

[00:41:37] right meeting the computer science students at my college because i'm like oh you all are the

[00:41:42] most tiresome freaks uh who will never have a good idea i don't want you to make a video game

[00:41:49] or like another friend of mine who is not um i'm about to drop a name here uh a friend of mine

[00:41:54] Josh Sawyer the guy who directed fallout new vegas and penement and penement he has a theater

[00:42:01] background um and again like it comes through in his work and i think that's cool as hell

[00:42:08] penement so i need to make joke well show won't play anything that's long because of his damn baby

[00:42:14] um yeah he sucks at video games

[00:42:20] um Josh i gotta ask you i forgot to do this

[00:42:25] and now it seems stupid but it's a tradition are you an anime sicko

[00:42:29] um yeah so i was marinating on this question a little bit and i think my answer is

[00:42:36] um uh uh a measured yes uh sicko for sure yes absolutely no question about it i'm a sicko

[00:42:43] the fact that we've been talking for 45 minutes now with relative ease i think makes it very

[00:42:47] clear that i'm a sicko on the anime side i would say i am not personally as into anime however

[00:42:55] however were i given an opportunity to enter the anime realm i would do so in a heartbeat and i

[00:43:02] think at the end of the day that does make me an anime sicko i mean honestly this is a lot this

[00:43:07] trips a lot of people up so i don't think don't feel bad for this um like the anime and anime

[00:43:12] sicko is more of a state of mind than anything right we don't watch anime we haven't watched anime since

[00:43:18] pretty much we started the show okay we haven't talked about anime for like two years um but like

[00:43:25] we have that stink on us like you know that we have watched anime and like you saying like you

[00:43:30] know that you could watch anime like that's it just it just you're in like you just are in that

[00:43:39] milieu you know yeah well not only could i watch anime i could become in anime like i could

[00:43:46] enter i could enter the anime realm quite literally i myself could become an anime i think um

[00:43:54] what i want to i don't know maybe i think it depends sort of circumstantially on where i'm at

[00:43:59] at a given moment but you know sometimes when you like you see an anime babe you know and you're like

[00:44:06] damn wish that wish wish wish i could be there right now you know i don't agree with you but

[00:44:14] i understand wow okay we've never been horny we're going to heaven you're not gonna be oh please

[00:44:21] okay i'm also going to heaven yeah that's good as long as you don't know it and you know what that

[00:44:27] you know what that heaven is gonna be the anime realm or i'm gonna be hanging out with anime babes

[00:44:33] i mean you have it goku goku yeah goku that's right take goku um i guess that's the other thing that

[00:44:38] makes me an anime seco is that speaking of goku we do have a running bit on our show that involves

[00:44:45] the idea of like goku eating so much food that he becomes very large and although you know he might

[00:44:55] not seem like he could eat another bite he can always get bigger because you know he's a say in

[00:45:00] and and and one of the things that's in his wheelhouse is that just means that he can keep inflating

[00:45:05] and and and and and and and and so much and so goku we're like oh no i can't but regardless of that

[00:45:14] he can always have another bite and so we're gonna keep feeding goku until he gets even more full

[00:45:21] there's like some fetish shit under here that i don't like i also think it's more christian

[00:45:28] that this is like i don't think it's funny this is just like literally what fucking

[00:45:34] wuffy one piece does every time he has dinner he becomes a round guy yeah just like

[00:45:41] oh yeah we had we had some people in our comments on the patreon talking about like the

[00:45:46] difference between luffy and goku in their relative like approaches to inflation

[00:45:51] so no we're sickos we're anime sickos we're absolutely anime sickos i don't even know why i

[00:45:56] thought we were not anime sickos this is the fucking this is the tale as old as time for people

[00:46:01] answering this question yeah start as a tentative yes we talk through it and then they're like wait

[00:46:05] a minute what was i thinking yeah yeah yeah okay okay and it's an interesting that you would

[00:46:09] mention your show that you were running get gag on because i do i do think it is interesting

[00:46:15] that obviously you know we the shows get recommended to each other clearly as they should you know

[00:46:22] we get along famously we're riffing with ease what a rapport we have

[00:46:27] we're pals we're buds we're hanging out we're chilling it's good time and yet when you describe

[00:46:33] the ethos and the process that you guys have about making the worst possible worlds podcast

[00:46:41] my reaction was like this guy's from the moon like this guy's a

[00:46:45] sister of this dang moon because so here's here's the look down at curtain for your listeners we take

[00:46:52] Joe and i take great pains to create a quality product as good as we could possibly make it we cut

[00:46:57] no corners once that is completed we cut every corner we're just like okay done here it is

[00:47:06] fucking i hope some listeners of this please reach away we're not gonna do it whereas you guys

[00:47:12] tell us about i don't want to say my words how do you fucking like what is your what is your

[00:47:17] game plan for this show that you get well i feel like i'm like doing an info commercial for the show

[00:47:24] and i don't i don't want it to fully be that you know i yeah but but i i am happy to talk a little

[00:47:31] bit about sort of the i guess creative process or whatever because i think it's interesting and i

[00:47:35] can tell that that you guys like have i could tell just from what you sent me uh in in terms of

[00:47:41] prep and stuff like that that like similarly you've got your process that you're trying to work on

[00:47:46] and also when we were going back and forth on twitter for a while the whole reason i reached out to

[00:47:51] in the first place is that you know you guys did do an audio drama right and that is something

[00:47:57] that we are also planning on like we've we've had one that we've been working on for a while

[00:48:03] and so i've been reaching out to a lot of different people have been doing this kind of thing

[00:48:06] being like what have you learned like in general when it comes to making something it's always best

[00:48:10] to talk to other people who have tried to do that thing and be like what have you learned what would

[00:48:15] you recommend what would you avoid in that sort of thing and so i guess as regards like just making

[00:48:21] the weekly show what we try to do is similarly just put out the best fucking show that we can we

[00:48:27] pick out a topic we get a guest who is relevant to that subject matter sometimes and then we ahead of

[00:48:35] time plot out a lot of what the thing is going to look like much like we have done for this episode um

[00:48:40] which yeah similar peak behind the curtain a lot of those jokes weren't off the dome there were good

[00:48:44] jokes that we came up with ahead of time uh which is you know intelligent um and i don't know like

[00:48:53] what specifically i guess about it are you are you wanting to know well the thing the blue

[00:48:59] mind mind is yet you're like we're doing this with the goal of it being our job and i'm just like

[00:49:08] i i'll say it i'm too scared to try hmm like that because because because what does that mean it

[00:49:17] means you're doing a lot more work yeah you you you make longer episodes you have to be much more

[00:49:23] like thoughtful about like what do we pay wall because like and you have to do a pay wall because

[00:49:27] like this is best practice for making income like what do we pay while what do we make free we

[00:49:31] have to entice people but we have to also make there be a value add to to it pointing up out of the

[00:49:36] and then also like you told me that like oh the dsx episode is free uh because we missed

[00:49:42] in week and i was so guilty that i had to put something good for the and it was like we miss a third

[00:49:49] of the week yeah we just say like busy fuck you yeah we don't have an episode yeah well actually

[00:49:56] it was um it was the Alan Wake episode that we re re re re released because yeah it was like

[00:50:02] i had to take a week off that was the first time we missed a release since we started doing the show

[00:50:07] but it's incredible uh thank you i guess i don't know i'm also i'm also like i fucking uh grew up

[00:50:14] like dutch Protestant in the great state of michigan so like i have an unhealthy relationship with

[00:50:19] work and in that as that that's a piece of it as well right okay fair um but i think

[00:50:25] i think in terms of like trying to make a thing that's a product right it is really difficult

[00:50:34] to find the right balance between all of the different moving pieces and i don't know that

[00:50:40] it's necessarily something that is the thing that makes the most sense for most people to do

[00:50:45] like i think that most people even people who are like such as present company who are like

[00:50:51] making an excellent show if the thing that you're trying to make is not the sort of thing that would

[00:50:58] like if you want to be able to be like okay you know we just can't do the show this week whatever

[00:51:05] having the additional pressure of knowing that if you miss a week or if the episode isn't as good

[00:51:12] you're gonna start seeing it in the bottom line like that sucks that really sucks and it's not

[00:51:20] particularly a fun it's not it's not a fun time necessarily because it's all about finding the

[00:51:25] balance between a product that sells well and just making something that you are happy with

[00:51:31] and if you can focus on just making the thing that you're happy with without having to worry

[00:51:34] about how much money it's making honestly you're probably gonna have more fun so like if having fun

[00:51:41] is the goal i would never recommend doing it as a business um i don't know those are those are

[00:51:46] scattered thoughts scattered thought i have devastating news for you this is a podcast like that's

[00:51:53] that's what it's all fucking about uh no this is legit because i mean like that's that's kind of

[00:51:59] what i was like saying to you about like when we were discussing the differences between our

[00:52:04] approaches and i'm like i think like the main thing is that for joe and me this is for funzies

[00:52:10] this is like our hobby yeah it's a little toy box on the side yeah also a lot of my ideas will

[00:52:18] come from when i'm actively trying to disengage with what's in front of me which uh work is sort of

[00:52:26] right uh a very very useful tool for coming up with ideas uh unfortunately because it's just like oh

[00:52:35] as i mentally run away i will create this wonderful map that i will tell Tom about later

[00:52:40] yeah uh and like i don't know uh what you said as well i i need to do different things i need to like

[00:52:48] not just be all in one uh basket for kind of the reasons you said uh which is like

[00:52:54] if i'm only doing one thing and the bottom line is not doing well as a reflection of quality

[00:52:59] that just stings a little bit more if that's my main thing right yeah i will say that like as much as

[00:53:06] i do get like pissy about the numbies and i try not to but like man i can see my numbies is that

[00:53:14] the is that the nor is that you make i can i can either confirm nor deny okay um so i'm looking

[00:53:19] to not be i try not to get pissy because like what like the whole point of this like the whole

[00:53:26] reason there's a show at all is because like me and show would like text each other like jokes

[00:53:31] that would take like a hundred years to set up and real up and like could basically could never

[00:53:36] be told but like we're both like this is the funniest thing anyone's ever said and then like let's just

[00:53:41] make a show where the the format is whatever fucking thing we want to say and it's bit like it is

[00:53:49] a hundred percent just like a mental health exercise that people have and to listen to which is

[00:53:54] incredible yeah so i try i have to like go back to that but the it's it's easier to do that with

[00:54:01] like the funny silly episodes or we're just doing whatever and it's more difficult to do that

[00:54:06] when it's about the fucking audio drama i've worked on here and spent ten thousand dollars on

[00:54:12] you have something you want to roast us about speaking of that well yeah i mean i i mentioned it

[00:54:17] earlier but i'll roast you again um i don't understand how you can call it call something sick

[00:54:23] oh shock and have not played system shock that's that's that's beyond wild to me um and i'm not

[00:54:29] upset uh i just was really looking forward to talking about system shock too uh and and now i'm

[00:54:36] not going to get to i mean i could talk about it but like it probably wouldn't be fun because it

[00:54:41] would just be me monologuing for like ten minutes uh and then you'd be like yeah yeah uh hacking

[00:54:48] you say shotguns okay okay wrench you know we could talk you know you're playing ballad

[00:54:55] show don't you know about ballad show you play ballad show yet yeah i know about it's it's like

[00:55:00] everyone is like hey there's this drug that's like made for you like everyone loves this fucking

[00:55:05] drug uh we're all shooting it up in the street yeah we're all texting you about how much we love

[00:55:09] doing the drama to come out here and do the drug was uh uh and uh i've not taken the plunge yet

[00:55:16] i fucking purchased it i just haven't played it uh and the main reason i have been able to resist

[00:55:22] thus far is not my child it is because i've been playing instead this game called talented

[00:55:28] which is a game that is just about talent trees uh what else do you fucking need to make a of course

[00:55:33] this an action roguelike it's done in 20 minutes oh that sounds cool it has a wonderful

[00:55:39] gameboy aesthetic which i am coming to understand for myself that actually i think that is my

[00:55:46] favorite early gaming uh aesthetic i really like the the game we look for yeah um i think it's

[00:55:54] neat it's it's it's so clearly invoking a specific device without saying it yeah i'll tell you what

[00:56:01] Joe if you can if you can get your hands on a an analog pocket because now they've finally cleared

[00:56:06] the backlog it is my favorite i got one a while back and now that you can put all the rams on it

[00:56:13] and use all the screen filters without having to put a cartridge in it's it might be the best

[00:56:18] thing to ever happen to gaming i don't know it's up there i don't wonder if we find out about

[00:56:22] the amber nico basically there was one week where time and i realized that uh Chinese gameboys that

[00:56:27] you can put all the rams on were like sixty dollars uh and we both purchased them and oh yeah

[00:56:33] it was like the best thing has ever happened because you had we this is again a sort of the

[00:56:38] conversation we've had which is like a gizmo versus a doodad your computer is a gizmo you got

[00:56:43] shit to plan it but it also does all this other stuff it braids a lot you know just sometimes

[00:56:48] gonna reboot it but like an amber nick is a doodad that only plays mario too right so it was

[00:56:55] refreshing in that regard and i'm sure that's probably why you like the pocket as well i think the

[00:57:00] pocket is a little more on the gizmo side of the spectrum though because of the fact that it's

[00:57:05] a fairly extensible thing and you can load so many different types of rams on it and it's like

[00:57:10] emulating the shit at the actual hardware level if you care about that amber nick doesn't do that i

[00:57:15] mean amber nick has all the emulators and like it had it's just software emulation though right yeah

[00:57:20] yeah yeah uh the thing well okay so the analog pockets got that over it but what the amber nick has

[00:57:27] at the uh analog doesn't is that the plastic is made to look like wood grain so it looks like

[00:57:34] you're playing an old wood game boy don't you have yours on hand to like show hold up but i do

[00:57:40] love wood which of course is the best uh thing that all games are handcrafted from you know when

[00:57:46] when you're when you're programming a video game you actually first have to go to the the game log

[00:57:52] and you kind of chop you chop the game out of the log progressive here the log whittle it down

[00:57:59] and then you're left with a nice game show i got this is this is something i gotta say about

[00:58:03] boatro which is uh he's they call it the poker road like uh and i really was not looking forward

[00:58:12] if people were like oh the demos great and i'm just like fuck that because here's the thing about

[00:58:16] poker i mean different on poker it's like a concept like i'm not saying i don't like it or i

[00:58:21] love it it's just like it's a truly neutral thing so like if i get addicted to this it's because

[00:58:26] it's made with god's love so here's the thing show i'm i'm one more i actively despise poker whenever

[00:58:35] yakusa is like now you play poker i'm like fuck you because what is poker okay you get two little

[00:58:41] cards and you're like i sure hope these are good and they're like do you want to bet i'm like

[00:58:47] i don't know i guess and then they reveal three cards or maybe four five i don't they reveal a bunch

[00:58:54] of cards three than one then one five total yes okay and i'm just like my cars weren't very good

[00:59:00] i guess i lose and then i lose and it's just like when did the game happen like what was the part

[00:59:04] that i was supposed to be playing the betting i hate betting betting is my least favorite thing in

[00:59:09] the universe i will never bet and so i was like fucking balacha is gonna suck ass well guess what

[00:59:16] it is like criminally misleading it is like false advertisement on a on a grand scale to say that

[00:59:22] this game has anything to fucking do with poker the only thing that it has in common with

[00:59:27] poker is that the patterns that you're trying to make with the cards are the same here's the like

[00:59:32] what is the main gameplay uh you discard cards from your hands and draw new ones until you get

[00:59:38] the cards you want and i'm just like oh you actually get to play a game right okay well that

[00:59:44] changes everything and then you can you can basically cook the deck over the course of the game

[00:59:49] so that it is what you want and the good cards will always come up and you get these jokers

[00:59:55] oh the shillers do in the jokers change the rules of the game as well so you what you're basically

[01:00:01] doing is you are simultaneously building out a favorable rule set and a favorable deck you're

[01:00:07] doing it on both sides simultaneously it's so good and also like the rounds take like zero seconds

[01:00:15] so like it really i mean talking about like what we're all doing this drug show you heard this

[01:00:19] you're here to fentanyl you gotta come out and do a head of fentany i don't need an

[01:00:23] effort to come out i just to get within like a mile right and it kills me yeah well that's only

[01:00:28] if you're a cop um okay correct yeah no i've done um i just for some context like this week has been

[01:00:34] insane for me because i've had a deadline at my day job i've had a deadline for something else

[01:00:41] that is like parallel work uh i'm recording two episodes of our podcast this weekend and of course

[01:00:47] i'm recording this and nevertheless this week i have lost 20 hours of my life to blotrow

[01:00:55] do okay here jo here i think is the thing that's gonna make your brain really go nutty is that you

[01:01:01] got jokers that add multipliers right so you have like a score i got a hand as a score you

[01:01:07] know this hand is hand scores 50 chips but then the jokers can add multipliers and maybe if they

[01:01:13] you know a certain thing happens it triggers them they can add multipliers numerous times you

[01:01:17] if like all you have the scores multiplied by 30 then in addition to that you have multiplier multipliers

[01:01:24] that multiply your multiplier right so you get up to 30 and then you have another thing that

[01:01:29] multiplies your multiplier by two and now you have 60 and you can see how if you line these up

[01:01:36] this isn't like the same mechanics as this but it's it's uh like really making my brain get excited

[01:01:43] the same way dyskia does dyskia is just like here's a bunch of insane numbers every item is a dungeon

[01:01:49] you can go into it and make it go up it's just like this sort of like macro mindset yeah go go go

[01:01:56] numbers numbers nothing with numbers uh there are people get sat and met get mad when

[01:02:01] they gave him something with numbers they're like where's the story yeah but man i'm a guy in

[01:02:05] the wool cookie clicker head i love on it's awesome yeah well and the thing that i think really

[01:02:09] makes blotto like it's the little extra piece that makes it so addictive is the visual polish

[01:02:15] it's the fact that like once you get a really good combo going the the score lights on fire

[01:02:21] and the fire gets bigger the higher your score and multiplier get and like the numbers that are

[01:02:27] popping onto the screen get bigger and bigger and bigger and it makes you feel like you're fucking

[01:02:31] god to be clear it makes you i don't mean it makes you feel as if you are god it makes you feel like

[01:02:38] you are fucking god yeah you have god between your legs and you're going for like when the first

[01:02:47] time that this triggered i was just like oh yeah this is a good one yeah so when when when your

[01:02:53] jokers have like triggers that like when this happens that happens yeah every time it triggers

[01:02:59] it makes a little dunk like a little sound that's like it triggered and if that sound plays enough

[01:03:07] times on a single hand it starts getting higher pitched and faster and faster and it's just like

[01:03:16] i've like i've made the golden castle like this is what humankind was doing all along

[01:03:22] it's a similar feeling to getting like a really good shot in pebble yes and then i also am thinking

[01:03:28] of just opening the maximum bonus chest and vampire survivors and it's just like you hit the jackpot

[01:03:35] it's gonna play this at you for 30 minutes and you're not gonna complain because like this is the

[01:03:39] best thing you've ever seen on your screen yeah yeah god damn blotchro I still think like in my

[01:03:48] intellectual brain like indeed slay the spires a bit of game the design standpoint indeed but

[01:03:55] like slay the spire has graphics that are terrible and music that sucks shit oh i disagree

[01:04:01] I disagree well it doesn't have a cool CRT filter correct like send spooky synths like

[01:04:11] yeah blotchro has one song and it's that's all it needs because the song is so good

[01:04:18] it's really fucking good huh i mean i'm gonna play it i'm gonna fucking play it

[01:04:23] do it yeah hell yeah it's also it's also what 25 bucks less 15 it's like it's so affordable

[01:04:29] it's too affordable i mean i already bought i should say i'm going to take the final plunge and

[01:04:35] boot it up and hear that sweet sweet synth and just finally put talented to bed also it's an

[01:04:40] early access i'll come back to it so here's the battery later yeah yeah so here's the real danger

[01:04:46] i think with all these fucking action roguelikes in early access is that like you will come back

[01:04:52] to them in like two months and it'll be a way better because these games are nothing

[01:05:00] it's 15 bucks i just looked at blotchro's 15 bucks he could have he could have and should have

[01:05:05] charge twice that

[01:05:07] so before we started recording we were talking and we found i think the commonality between

[01:05:22] sickos and your podcast is that we have a similar approach to criticism this is the commonite

[01:05:28] road and you could tell me if you also agree with this rather than like trying to say oh this

[01:05:33] is good or bad the questions you ask is what is this trying to achieve and does it execute on

[01:05:39] its premise and the thing is you can be wrong with one and two you could be off target about what

[01:05:45] is trying to achieve and you can also argue incorrectly about whether or not it's good but even if

[01:05:49] you're wrong it's a much more concrete kind of wrong than when you're just like fucking saying

[01:05:54] stuff is good or bad yeah yeah yeah i and this is something i mean i could get very pretentious

[01:06:02] about criticism and like oh you don't want it okay all right we're gonna do it we're doing it baby

[01:06:10] a culture writing is dead like everyone is going to finally chance you're gonna fucking get

[01:06:14] okay so yes right like i think that this is particularly interesting as regards gaming journalism

[01:06:21] because of course we're we're one of the people who we we care about ethics we care about ethics

[01:06:26] in game journalism obviously you know we're trying to bring the ethics back

[01:06:31] um Anita Sarkeeson got rid of the ethics we're bringing them back um no but seriously like

[01:06:37] there is i think it's exactly right show that there's this really reductive tendency to say

[01:06:43] well this is good and the means by which you are judging it to be good is whether you think

[01:06:50] that it aligns with your personal taste and aesthetic and that's not useful to anyone

[01:06:57] beck i mean we did just get done talking about like bilatro and how much it aligns with my personal

[01:07:01] aesthetic and how much i love it but i think there is a big difference between being like okay

[01:07:06] mechanically this is fun and here's why right and well i think that this had too much SJW in it

[01:07:17] because uh you know if it were up to me if it were up to that's what it is right and i you see

[01:07:24] this so often these days if it were up to me i simply would have x i would have done that perfectly

[01:07:30] i would have made it and it's like first of all know you fucking wouldn't have and you know

[01:07:36] you get this with everything we even get this with the podcast sometimes where in thankfully

[01:07:40] it's not very often but we'll get a comment every once in a while it was like well why didn't

[01:07:44] you do this and well first of all some of the time we did and it didn't work so we cut it in

[01:07:50] the edit like hello but secondly i don't know maybe we didn't fucking want to it's my show not

[01:07:57] yours go fuck yourself you know well i think that this is part of the good bad conversation in so far

[01:08:05] as you said people say things are good whether or not it aligns to aesthetics

[01:08:11] i find i see sort of the inverse more which is it's bad because i'm pointing to this one thing

[01:08:19] that makes it bad yeah this is like the cinemasense thing yes exactly yes if you're gonna like

[01:08:27] the thing that's so exhausting about that is just like if you're going to have that approach where

[01:08:31] you're like looking for logical issues or like continuity issues those people also don't understand

[01:08:38] that like choices get made for the sake of storytelling to things fucking faster yes

[01:08:42] yes my fucking pet peeve that drives me nuts is and this is like it goes to the same thing it's like

[01:08:52] saying something is good or bad is meaningless it's about like it's about the intent and the effect you

[01:08:58] know when there is like a work of art that is like really unique and like striking and like

[01:09:05] essential and when it gets brought up people in this is this is the classic like cop in your head

[01:09:13] thing which is like i need to show that i need to show that i'm following the rules people when it

[01:09:18] gets brought up they need to like rush in but like but you know that it has these obvious flaws right

[01:09:24] and it's like what are you like what yeah yeah like like i remember uh i was at a titan tronicus concert

[01:09:33] once i'm up to believe that some of titan tronicus's records are staggering works of art that are

[01:09:38] essential and unique in the way that i've described and i remember there was someone oh well i think

[01:09:42] that they're bad so so what had the concert said wow he really can't sing and i'm just like

[01:09:52] like did you know what band you were coming to see yes he can't sing we all know he can't sing

[01:09:58] like that was established from like what are you talking about like that's not this out yeah it's

[01:10:04] like it is a thought it is a discussion terminating event it's like yeah thought terminating cliche

[01:10:09] exactly or discussion terminating event like you put it and and you know when we started doing

[01:10:14] the show like pretty early on the ideas you know the show is called the worst of all possible worlds

[01:10:20] and uh the idea was that we would be looking at a lot of shit that sucks and we still do that

[01:10:27] sometimes i mean we have a recurring sub series and what i actually was recording just earlier

[01:10:33] today in this episode will release in two weeks i'm so tired um it was uh an episode of a

[01:10:42] recurring sub series that we do about a show called Adventures in Odyssey which is an evangelical

[01:10:47] children's radio drama um it's horrible it sucks shit but the reason we keep talking about it

[01:10:55] is not that it's bad like it is but the just being like well this sucks it would not be entertaining

[01:11:02] what's interesting about it is the way that it sort of provides a lens in a window into a very

[01:11:07] specific like form of the reactionary mind specifically as regards evangelical Christianity and generally

[01:11:16] when we talk about something that we think sucks it has to suck in a way that's interesting

[01:11:22] because again rather than talking about well this was so bad and this happened ha ha isn't that dumb

[01:11:26] instead of being like what why would you ever do this and then trying to figure out what the creative

[01:11:33] choices were aiming for and then then once we do that try to be like okay well what can we take away

[01:11:40] from this like what can we actually learn how can we use this to hopefully build a better future

[01:11:45] rather than the one that we are actively barreling toward at all times which to be clear is the worst

[01:11:51] yeah of all possible what I okay yes yes yes I'm really I'm vibing big time what you're saying

[01:11:56] I especially think like the the whole thing of like you see this bad thing and the the the right

[01:12:03] move is trying to figure out like well like it's bad because of these choices and why were these

[01:12:08] choices made and I think the in general a lot of people like people talking about like media

[01:12:12] literacy is dying but like what does that actually mean was it means we're not a lot of talk about

[01:12:16] starship troopers anymore you know that's close to about that movie and I never want to see

[01:12:21] also nobody wants to work anymore yeah have you heard about this I mean I don't want nobody wants

[01:12:26] to work anymore no but like what media literacy is dying I think if that if I were to like say a

[01:12:33] thing that if I could use a magical spell and change one thing that would make the media literacy

[01:12:38] better it's like I want people to realize that that everything in a fucking piece of art is a

[01:12:45] choice that was made yeah and like and what you do now now your job is what is that like what did

[01:12:53] that choice mean yeah yeah and like I remember like we talked about Moby Dick in the last episode

[01:12:59] and like after I read it I saw that there was like a big like online book club and a lot of the

[01:13:04] people I saw posted with that hashtag were like why is there a way of facts chapter and just like

[01:13:11] well that's not like no there's a way that that's chapter because he wanted to because he

[01:13:15] wanted there to be a way of facts chapter yeah like don't like don't let that be rhetorical

[01:13:19] question like keep fucking thinking like why is that one maybe it's because it's a book about

[01:13:25] the biggest baddest whale you ever saw I don't know it's the title of the book but like

[01:13:32] that's I think that kind of Mike because like what are the things that like was like

[01:13:35] dressing us in that episode it's like why is it that like people yeah like people including us

[01:13:41] in like without before you read these books we think these books are dry and homework

[01:13:46] right like well how fucking why yeah and I think the reason is because if you want to talk about

[01:13:53] how we engage with media and the lack of media literacy it's because we're not taught to

[01:14:00] critically engage with things for the sake of getting something out of it instead I think we're

[01:14:07] taught these things as like well in this book this is what this means and it's like well is it

[01:14:13] I maybe maybe not maybe what it means is what you think it means maybe different things mean

[01:14:19] different things to different people maybe I can come away from something having had a completely

[01:14:24] different subjective experience from what you had maybe I loved it for the same reasons that you

[01:14:29] hated it and maybe that's good yeah yes yes fuck this is what I'm about to get pretentious as well

[01:14:37] hell yeah this is why I think like people they talk about this been talk about how like oh watching

[01:14:41] syskull and ebert was so informative to me as a child and like me as well and like they weren't

[01:14:46] doing like deep reviews because they had 30 seconds yeah very clearly ebert was a very succinct

[01:14:53] writer he's also writing for a newspaper so it had to be like what negative second grade

[01:14:59] yeah but like even on the TV show they have like 30 seconds to speak and that's it

[01:15:05] and syskull is the most idiotic man of all time constantly wrong about what movie see likes

[01:15:11] about but the point being like there was in culture like you could see easily people engaging with

[01:15:19] art and like and discussing it in terms of like what are these choices that are being made in

[01:15:23] and does it mean that these choices are made and how do we react to these choices and what

[01:15:27] hit me specifically not you me what does this make me think and not in a you know a solipsistic

[01:15:34] self-obsessed kind of way but like genuinely how am I engaging with this art in this moment

[01:15:40] rather than trying to pick it apart and analyze it for its failures you know just what what did it do

[01:15:45] to me because even if you don't have that same experience you will have a experience yes that's

[01:15:50] like like this this is a piece of art that does things to people I want to have it do a thing to

[01:15:55] me you know yeah and that shit like look I've been trying to I've been trying to become a jazz guy

[01:16:02] so just to become a genius and here's the thing about that if you're not reading people explain why

[01:16:08] it's good like how the fuck you supposed to know you need to know about like sevenths and be like oh

[01:16:13] indeed oh sevenths yes like you like shit gets better when people talk about it in a way that is

[01:16:23] not trying to score points or dunk it's like it's like meaningful and makes it's not that's the other

[01:16:28] the people be like oh these critics there's on there's such a high horse who needs critics I know

[01:16:33] what games I like and it's just like oh my god like that's not and like that's not that's not

[01:16:38] that's not the point you know that's not the point uh into your point like uh you don't see

[01:16:44] people engaging with stuff the way you had like Roger deniebert which were like that's one guy

[01:16:50] excuse Roger and Ebert you right you Roger and Ebert in this interview met my sons

[01:16:58] I am so dumerism on this front for many reasons one of them being is that we've established that

[01:17:07] like it just just doesn't get talked about why would you have this discussion because the question

[01:17:12] to be had is whether or not I like a thing and the reason I get so dumerism about this is because

[01:17:17] uh any sort of culture writing which is hand in hand with film is gone it's all gone there's

[01:17:24] there there's no meaningful uh cultural production on that front uh movies are now like how do I put

[01:17:34] this bad I was gonna say it's like a letter box tabby it should oh yeah yes it's

[01:17:42] movies and they still are but like the appeal was like for everyone they were not a weird niche thing

[01:17:51] and I just feel like I don't know uh I'm having trouble articulating this but it's just like

[01:17:57] there is more passive consumption of everything uh but no like meaningful like discussion or critical

[01:18:06] like interaction with stuff it's just goes into your head always yeah it's a slap dude give me the

[01:18:13] slap um I'm eating my delicious spoon of slap how tasty uh it sucks you know what I wish that

[01:18:21] you remember how remember the EV club was good I do it's like that's so let's talk about

[01:18:25] a fucking Chicago legend right there I mean that made me so sad what happened to the EV club that's

[01:18:30] so such a slam dunk for like really opening your eyes because it's like yeah this was not a quality

[01:18:37] issue right like we like they were probably one of the best yeah yeah outlets period and it's not

[01:18:44] just like playing favorite say we're just fucking good uh and it wasn't a market fit issue either

[01:18:50] like they had their market they had their subscribers and it wasn't like it it wasn't sustainable because

[01:18:56] what is sustainable is like the hockey stick venture capital growth right and also soon as

[01:19:03] the onion got put on the gauker platform it just looks like shit it's like that it's gone instead yeah

[01:19:09] god damn I remember dick at you in the comments never dick at you so like time was pqq

[01:19:15] but his nose was a day now I never comment down the AB club I read the comments a lot yeah

[01:19:21] yeah like a site where I was like okay wow uh this is a community that like obviously people

[01:19:26] are annoying and not funny sometimes but in general I would put this definitely above the curve in

[01:19:31] terms of like what is in the comment section on a given subject I mean this is exactly this is

[01:19:36] like the manifestation what I was talking about like when you have people when you have good writers

[01:19:41] who are engaging with media and like and talking about the choices and like what it means and what

[01:19:45] these choices do and like the implications thereof when you have someone modeling that it

[01:19:51] is conducive to a fucking community of people also people see that and go I could do that too

[01:19:56] yeah I would probably interpret those choices a little bit differently and it's like then

[01:20:00] oh and then you got people fucking thinking that's what it's that's the game man well in I think one

[01:20:05] of the things uh that has been most gratifying and fulfilling for me about doing our show

[01:20:11] is that as our audience has grown our comment section like on patreon I I think it's genuine

[01:20:17] we really good like I've seen I've seen comment sections on other patreons and and I mean look no

[01:20:25] hate to other patreons um but their listeners just aren't as good as ours um they're not they're

[01:20:31] not they're not brain geniuses uh they go too weak that's right that's right bitches not bad absolutely

[01:20:38] um but it's so it's so gratifying to like do an episode and then really throw it all out there in

[01:20:44] terms of what our thoughts are about a given piece and then people show up and they start telling

[01:20:50] their stories about what a given piece of media meant to them or what the conversation meant to them

[01:20:55] that's fucking cool I think that's what that's how it ought to be you know

[01:21:02] hell yeah this is like I agree majorly and this is why the thing that I keep posting is like

[01:21:11] somebody please write a few of sikoshak two people have said do it do it right now right now oh it's

[01:21:19] great oh I love it great job time wow amazing and I'm like no but like

[01:21:25] and part of it is just like tell me I'm smart tell me I'm a good boy but also it's just like

[01:21:30] what if it what worked like what like I think it worked but like what was it like what was the part

[01:21:35] like what how did like what like like how does it work I don't know how it works like I wrote it

[01:21:40] but like I don't really know I'm too close to it and I'm just like I need to know how it works

[01:21:46] and no one will say well you heard the man I'm gonna tell them right now I'm going to instruct

[01:21:51] them uh I I've a guest on this podcast I'm going to tell your listeners what to do uh which is go

[01:21:56] on apple podcasts and or the anime sickos patreon and leave all of your comments and reviews do it now

[01:22:06] yeah oh it's gonna be so I can feel it happening in the future oh I love it thank you

[01:22:14] god damn sicko mo sicko mo sicko mo sicko mo sicko mo sicko mo sicko mo sicko mo sicko mo sicko mo sicko mo sicko

[01:22:22] sicko sicko me so one last thing that I want to say about immersive sims before we wrap up here um

[01:22:28] and and I guess sort of looking toward this idea of like what does the future hold you know on some level

[01:22:34] I I do despair a bit about like you know they were gonna make a new Deus X game uh and it just got

[01:22:40] cancelled uh after two years of pre-production because these fucking Swedes who bought the company

[01:22:45] over leveraged into fucking Saudi money that never materialized and so they basically had to cancel

[01:22:51] all of Ida's ongoing projects.

[01:22:54] So we're not going to get another Deus Ex game probably ever.

[01:22:57] Ken Levine, who of course is the irrational guy.

[01:23:01] He was the guy who basically directed BioShock as well as System Shock 2.

[01:23:06] He was going to be making an immersive sim that was going to change the way that we think about

[01:23:10] games forever. Now the trailer's out. It's a game called Judas. He's just making BioShock again.

[01:23:15] Like it's so clearly just BioShock again.

[01:23:19] I love it when a guy just says the same game in him again.

[01:23:22] It's fine. It looks like it's going to be pretty fun but like it's not you know.

[01:23:28] And then you know with Arcane which is the other big M Sim studio.

[01:23:32] Deathloop I thought was pretty good. It basically did a lot of fun dishonored stuff and

[01:23:36] added a time loop mechanic that was okay. And then Arcane shipped Redfall which was a god damn

[01:23:43] disaster. And now they're making a Marvel game. And if it's anything like what happened at

[01:23:48] Idos Montreal they will also never make an M Sim again. So you know I'm looking toward the

[01:23:54] grassroots. I'm looking toward Indies. I'm looking towards stuff like Gloomwood, Spectra as well

[01:23:59] as you know recently released stuff like Cruelty Squad, Control Alt Ego. If you're into these kinds

[01:24:04] of games check all of those out. Do Gloomwood on Easy Access or add it to your wish list. Same thing

[01:24:10] with Spectra. These games look cool as fuck and I look forward to playing them at some point once

[01:24:15] they come out. Yeah. So Cruelty Squad was a great example of a game I understood how it was

[01:24:22] what the premise was and it was executing on. And I applauded it but I was disgusted and I hated

[01:24:28] looking at it. Yeah. I don't know what the premise is because as soon as I saw any art of it

[01:24:32] I'm like I'm too scared of this. Yeah it's that kind of just going to get in my soul and make me dirty.

[01:24:38] I was literally the first menu. The main menu felt me with a lot of dread and it was just a menu.

[01:24:50] Yeah. No Cruelty Squad is an immersive Sim where you are a hitman and you have to go through

[01:24:57] increasingly bizarre levels full of horrible, horrible brain dead people to find and eliminate your

[01:25:04] target. It is I think of all the games I've ever played maybe the one that best captures them

[01:25:11] that how it feels being alive right now in a really rough way. You know it's probably what it's

[01:25:19] it's a game that you're either going to love or you're going to bounce off it immediately and

[01:25:22] there's really not much in between those two extremes. Interesting. I have something else that

[01:25:28] I want to say about immersive Sims as well before we wrap up which is when I get wrapped up in

[01:25:34] cool math games call that an immersive sum. When a veteran newscaster's sonorous voice and

[01:25:38] raptures me call that an immersive crime when my verbal tick makes me freestyle rap call that a

[01:25:44] verse of STEM when John Krasinski tortures me for information about the terrorists call that a

[01:25:50] coercive gym when my fat free milk goes rancid call that the worst of skim. Oh it is it is

[01:25:58] it do be like that when that orange guy from the fantastic forkies repeating himself call that a

[01:26:04] recursive grim and when my pal from grade school is neither here nor there you call that an immaterial

[01:26:11] I will do all of those things just for you folks that's the episode thank you Josh

[01:26:25] Bourman for coming on the worst possible podcast and me so it was podcasts and have a great time

[01:26:30] yammering. Thank you I had a fantastic time yammering I that was I can't believe that was an hour

[01:26:36] and a half that went by so fast which I think is always a good sign I had a great time hell yeah

[01:26:40] now you have to hang out with us all the time I'm just going to be out like what should be trying

[01:26:44] to get in through your screen door. God I know you look at yeah I'm pretty far away from still

[01:26:49] I am I am persistent okay I thought you were gonna say I am actually inside your walls right now

[01:26:56] call me the unknown because I am inside your walls as we speak oh love that shit we're gonna

[01:27:02] talk about the anti graffiti what is that it's the unknown yeah we're gonna just be outside

[01:27:12] that bodega that you like we know as a new Yorker that bodega so your favorite thing my favorite

[01:27:16] bodega yeah we have target we just go to target yeah target is I mean we have to well then what the

[01:27:23] fuck you talking about bodega for you already have bodega too. You are still makes sense where can

[01:27:29] people find your work if they want to find it I mean I know obviously you know but like say yeah

[01:27:36] yeah I mean we've talked about it a bit on this episode but I co-host a show called The Worst

[01:27:41] of All Possible Worlds every week we do a case study in the pop culture of this dying empire and

[01:27:48] yeah we you can find us on various social medias just search for the worst of all possible worlds

[01:27:54] our website is worst possible dot world and we also have a patreon which is patreon.com slash

[01:28:01] worst of all so yeah feel free to check us out if you if you enjoy you know the sickos I think

[01:28:08] we will also have a lot to offer you and and I hope that you uh that you check us out and then

[01:28:12] thanks again guys for having me on no problems our pleasure thank you so much yeah man

[01:28:18] anyway that's all the time we have for me and my sickos I've been Tom and anime sicko

[01:28:23] I've been Joe and anime sicko and I've been Josh and I'm an anime sicko

[01:28:29] hell yeah we'll see you next time bye bye see you

[01:28:34] thank you for listening to anime sicko I've been Tom a sicko you can follow me on twitter at

[01:28:40] time here in some nineteen Joe was also a sicko you can follow him on twitter at sharia uncle

[01:28:45] you can follow anime sickos on twitter at anime sickos or email us at anime sickos at gmail.com

[01:28:52] please leave us a review or something I don't know tell a friend anyway until next time bye