220: Josh Boerman and Dylan Rank Game Mechanics With Us

[00:00:27] Welcome to Anime Sickos Podcast and I did it on the first try. I said it all correctly on the first try. You fucked up hello. You said hebo. I said hebo. Hello. I will not make Anime Sickos a Baby Talk Podcast. We're gonna put you down. Kill you. I'm an Anime Sicko. Kill you. Okay. If you haven't heard our intro shit, listen to any of our previous 200 and however

[00:00:57] shows. The energy's dead. I can't do it. We've already started. My understanding is that it's a podcast. It's the only podcast, right? Yeah, yeah. That's it. Yeah. Listen to any of the old ones. There's some audio drama ones that just have a different vibe. I'm not saying they're not good. I'm just saying that'd be a weird one to start with. And also, yeah, that wouldn't fulfill the stated goal of hearing the intro. Who fucking cares? We got Josh Boerman here to rank Game Mechanics. Josh, thank you for joining us.

[00:01:27] Let's go. I'm excited. Can I kind of frame this a little bit? So Josh has been on the show before and many times. He is an immersive sims head. It's true. An immersive sim until I started recording with Josh. I thought the term was like stealth game, but it's not just stealth game.

[00:01:49] I would argue that almost all immersive sims are stealth games, but not all stealth games are immersive sims. Like, obviously, Splinter Cell is not an immersive sim. Metal Gear is not an immersive sim. Correct. It has to have, like, a physics engine that lets you do shit that is not designed because that's just how boxes work.

[00:02:17] Like, if you stacked boxes that way, you could do this. And that's the immersion. You know what? Let's just get right on started. Why fuck around? Let's begin our incredible discussion with what I... When you put this... Because a lot of these, I'm going to say, I gave Josh the list of mechanics and said you could add whatever you want. And this is the first one you added. And I felt like... Because there are times when I feel like this list, long as it is, has everything.

[00:02:46] And then I think of something that I'm like, how was that not the first thing I thought of? And there's already, like, five or six hundred things on this list at this point, right? It's pretty long. It's 350. It's our life's work, yeah. Yeah. You wrote, and this is going to be our first topic, learning backstory from audio tapes NPCs left lying around. I cannot believe that I did not write that down as the first thing. Can I ask a clarifying question? Sure.

[00:03:14] Do the tapes come with the player itself so each one is just... Like, you could pick up anyone and just hit play. Or do you need to put it in something you own? They usually leave the tape recorders lying, like the recorders themselves, in my experience. That rules. One-to-one. I gotta tell you why I love this so much. Now, you're a theater person. You understand about dramaturgy... Absolutely. And how just the staging of something, like what physical items are on stage,

[00:03:44] that does a lot of storytelling work regardless of the script. This is in many ways what a director does. You're not just doing a rote reading of the script like a table read. No, no, no. So when we realized that this is a world where people leave around huge plastic tape recorders, and in fact, the most common way people leave notes for themselves is to buy a huge tape recorder

[00:04:11] and record one minute of audio on it and be like, done with this forever. That is... Like, I'm immediately in a hilarious world I fucking love. I mean, I feel like Bioshock was probably most people's first experience to this mechanic. The tape recorders are like three feet long in that. They're huge. But there's the other piece, too, that I love about the storytelling of it, where, as you said, you're not just getting information about what they're recording and how they're recording.

[00:04:40] Where they left the tapes really, really mad. Oh, my God, yes. So, like, you can stage a scene in such a way where there is this big, long, like, trail of blood, and then there's a body just, like, lying there, and directly next to that body, a fucking tape recorder. And you know when you press play on that bad boy that the first thing that you're going to hear is just screams of agony. Another reason, and I sort of forget about this because we did it many, many, many, many years ago,

[00:05:09] but a reason that I couldn't believe that we didn't put this on this list is that we did a whole 45-minute audio drama exclusively about finding tape recorders. Right. So people will leave these notes for either themselves or others, but also sometimes you really don't want someone to listen, so you have to put it, like, under a barrel, maybe. Yeah. Or, like, behind a staircase. Like, you want to tell the world your story, but, like, not everybody. Right.

[00:05:36] It also paints the picture of a world where everyone's writing is so sort of, like, pithy, and to the point where it's just, like, I have one minute to talk. Like, how am I going to, one, portray my character as a real and lived-in sort, while also giving a world-building glimpse of a critical point? Just the idea, too, of, you know, I have just taken critical damage. I know that I'm about to die.

[00:06:04] And in my last minute of life, I pull my tape recorder out. I push record. I start talking. These will be my final words. Also, it's very funny that we now live in a world where all of us, at all times, carry around a portable audio recording device. Right. And no one does this. You'd have to leave your phone, though. That's true. Yeah, that's true. Or just, like, maybe I would just have a game.

[00:06:32] If I made my game, they would be those little, like, digital Sony pocket recorders, you know? The ones that you would get as a kid where you could, there was a little slider that would make your voice slow down or speed up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta put it all the way on fast. Put it all the way on slow and then talk fast and then turn it to fast. What are the things that every good, like, tape-recorded message needs? Obviously, you need to say your name. That's huge.

[00:07:02] You need to say which number tape in the series this is. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they have to be in order. You have to say, if you are a before-the-fall tape, you have to be really confident that nothing bad will ever happen. Yes, yes, yes, yes. This is a fantastic experiment. There have been no downsides whatsoever. Things are cooking along great. I cannot wait to submit my final report to the journal in two months.

[00:07:28] And then when the first problem starts happening, you have to be like, this is under control. Oh, this is within parameters. We expected something like this to happen. Oh, and there's also the, I was just talking with Dan. And he said he saw something a little weird. Right? It's always that. It's the, that guy told me that he saw something, but I'm not sure if I should believe him or not. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's good. That's good.

[00:07:56] Also, critical thing is like, then later you find the note from Dan and like, Dan's crazy. Yes, yes. Dan went nuts. Dan went crazy. You find his body. There's no head on it anymore. Or like he's been turned into a fucking zombie or whatever. Absolutely. He wrote something on the wall in his blood. In his own blood. Yes. Finally, somebody who gets what good storytelling looks like.

[00:08:27] Ranking wise, I'm putting this in the upper third, no question. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I wanted to pose a question to the fellas. Just from a narrative storytelling perspective, I know it's funny. Are we in agreement that it's insanely lazy just to have tape record? Like, just to be like, this is how you consume information player. You just pick up the little sound bites. It's lazy, but I don't mind it. And here's why.

[00:08:51] One, it solves the problem that a lot of collectibles have where if you don't, like, there's a lot of games where like, I see a chest in the distance, but then I think about it and just like, there's nothing in the game that I want. Like, I guess this was a lot of times.

[00:09:11] People talked about this at length with Final Fantasy VII Remake is that like, especially on the easy difficulty, which you're required to do your first playthrough on, like, you don't need potions. So why would I ever, like, go out of my way to get a collectible? This is, you have the same sort of, like, hide and seek collectible minigame, but you get some, like, what you get is, like, real. Like, you really are hearing a little bit of storytelling. Here's another thing.

[00:09:39] The real lazy shit is codex entries, which, which you ever do, those, those are going in F because no one reads those. Also, these you don't have to read and you employ, well, hopefully, you employ voice actors to read them. Right. That's my take. And I think, too, that the fact that, yes, they will play as you move through the world. That was my next point. In a weird way, it respects you.

[00:10:05] Like, I'm still able to continue ransacking this village as I listen. To the question, though, of, like, if it's lazy or not, I think it kind of depends on how specific you make the writing. Like, why am I keeping these logs? Generally speaking, in my experience, it works best in games like System Shock 2 because, like, they're a border research space station. So, of course, they would be making regular logs of what they're doing. Same thing in Prey.

[00:10:33] But in Bioshock, it's a little weirder. You just have to assume that that was this fashion. Like, that was, like, so popular that you would, like, go to the store and buy 50 tape recorders for, like, the month. There should have been a tape recorder vending machine next to the ammo one. That would have been so funny. Oh, my God. Dude, this is the next Strand type game. There we go. Like, you do an audio log and you, like, leave it and someone else can pick it up in their game. Like, on the internet somewhere, who knows what?

[00:11:03] That could be really fun, actually. Most of it would just be intolerable. But it could be – you know, you could come up with a way to make that work, I feel like. The laziness, Joe, that I think you're talking about is just, like, yeah. When it's in a world where it's absurd to think that anyone would do this. However, like I said at the beginning, I like that because it's funny to me. Like, it suggests a funny world. And I like that. To me, the question really is S or A.

[00:11:32] Like, can we think of a time when this wouldn't be – like, is there a video game where this wouldn't be a benefit? I have one. It's not a video game and it's a point in a playthrough which is, like, you're mentally done. You're picking up new audio tapes and just, like, don't fucking care, man. Like, it's just, like, we are getting through the exploding factory and we are done. Okay. I think for me this is an A.

[00:11:55] Like, it's something that I love deeply, but I don't think I would want to come across an audio recording in, I don't know, like Metal Gear Solid. I don't think that would be good because, you know, you've already got him talking on the Codex and all that kind of thing. And, you know, there's just certain places where it wouldn't quite fit. I don't think it would fit in Death Stranding either now that I think about it. It really hits when there's, like, no one around, so it solves the problem that there's, like, no one talking to you. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:12:24] I think that's – I think you've hit it. Yeah. That's right. It has to be no one around. It is games that are generally going to be, like, some sort of survival horror situation where the lack of NPCs, the only way that you can compensate for that is either by writing or reading something that they left behind. Both of which can be covered in blood. True. This is not really relevant to this discussion, and I don't think it's a game mechanic that we can put on the list. I just want to say it because I've never said it to, like, another person before.

[00:12:50] But the fact that in Bioshock, when you do, like, meet other humans, the fact that they're always, like, on the other side of, like, a super prison cell is so – it's just, like, what are we doing here? I think A. Yeah, A. We're all in agreement with A. Okay. I think the next one – again, this is immersive sim classic. I think you really can't have an immersive sim if you don't have this.

[00:13:16] Guards whose imagination it must have been. Yes. I'm calling it now. This is S tier. I love this with every fiber of my being where you've been – you know, you get away. You hide in the corner. You complete the cool-down sequence, and you say, oh, must have been nothing.

[00:13:42] The fact of the matter is, if a guard says some version of this, I'm going to physically laugh. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Every time. It doesn't matter if I've been playing this for 80 hours. We talked about this previously, but there's nothing better when you get to make them say that in just the most deranged circumstances. The best of which I think is, like, a guard is talking to another guard, and you literally kill the other guard, and he's just like, whoa. Thought I heard something. Yeah.

[00:14:12] It's like your buddy's gone, dude. I mean, talk about, like, these little storytelling flourishes that are so efficient. You know, they don't just say what they say. They say so much else, which is, like, it's not just that the guard is like, I'm no longer looking for whatever made that noise. It must have been my imagination. It's like, wow, this is a world where the guards, the goons, hired muscle, have rich inner creative lives. Yeah.

[00:14:42] They're precocious scamps who imagine a fun world of scrapes and japes. I love it. And I think, too, part of the reason that we know it and love it so much is that Thief nailed it so well so early on because all of those guards are complete goofs. And the other things they'll be like, must have been a rat or something like that. Must have been a rat? Rats don't make a lot of sound. They're very light.

[00:15:12] Rats can't throw boxes around. What are you talking about? There's also something very special about, like, the guards, like, I'm activated in seeking mode ending just mere inches from you. And it's just like, oh, we're done here. I'm good.

[00:15:31] I assume that you have seen, given that you are so keen on this, the, I think, like, the Joel Haver video that, like, put him over and made him famous. Oh, my God, dude. Oh, yeah. This one is a work of art. So this is, it's called Tailing Missions from the NPC's Perspective. It's two mafia guys walking into a mafia thing.

[00:15:58] And they're explaining out loud what type of crime is occurring in that building and who is responsible. And there is the player character who is constantly making noise. And they will interrupt their conversation and go, who said that? Turn around and see the player character hiding very poorly. Go, must have been my imagination. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Start back up. The player character instantly makes another sound. They go, what's that noise? Must have. And they do it about 50 times.

[00:16:25] And the joke is very obvious, but it's the execution is off the chain. But I think, Joe, you made a good point. Like, this is a great example of a mechanic where when you include it, it's going to make the game funny. And so you have to figure out how you want that to work, you know? Because I think that there are a lot of games that try to feel more gritty and serious. Splinter Cell comes to mind.

[00:16:52] Where as soon as you include these classic stealth mechanics of people doing stuff that is absolutely fucking ridiculous that they would never do in the real world, it makes them look buffoonish in a way that makes you as the player character feel very powerful. But in a way that maybe takes away from a sense of, I don't know, realism such as this. Yeah, I'm being hunted by the Navy 6 Super 6 guys.

[00:17:20] And also, because I move too fast around a corner, they're now all T-posing. Right. Like, if I am patrolling a building and I hear Sam Fisher's here, it's like, sorry, I'm no longer walking back and forth in line. I'm turning on all the lights and standing in a corner with my gun out. Guards also have infinite patience.

[00:17:46] If you sit there and throw rocks for a year, they will inspect every single one. It's beautiful. Yeah, no pattern recognition type behavior. This thing, too, and you get this in Dishonored a lot, too, where it's like, if you're playing pure stealth, trying to get past one specific guy and you're just having such difficulty getting past his route.

[00:18:13] And so it's just the eternal chain over and over and over again of, what was that noise? Hmm. Swear I could have heard something. No fucking way. You can't see me. Must have been nothing. It's one of those things that, like, one of my classic jokes. I love making this joke. And the reason I love it is because no one ever fucking finds it funny. But I do, which makes it more funny to me. Which is just like, every video game is about jumping. Video games are like 90% jumping. I can't remember the last time I jumped in real life.

[00:18:43] Like, jumping never comes up for me. Similarly, I've heard the wind a lot. And I've never thought, that sounds like a guy walking around. Dude, they say that shit inside. You're like in a dungeon millions of miles below the earth. And I think there's a breeze in here. And it's very loud. I'm thinking A. I know Josh, you said S. But then you argued against S by saying that if you don't have the right tone, it doesn't work.

[00:19:13] Because the idea is that S is something that is a universal mechanic that ought to be in everything if possible. Yes. Like, for example, the quintessential S is like double jump. Like, you always want to give me great if you could double jump in any game. I hear your argument. What if I gave it an A+. That would just be an asterisk. It would still be an A, and you would know that it was A+. Okay. It's like when you sell someone a star. Yeah, I'm going to say A+.

[00:19:40] It exists in the sense that people who listened to the episode will know. And you'll know. But if you just look at the tier list, it'll appear to be a straight A. Got it. But, like, it's the plus of the mind. Mm-hmm. Okay. All right. So, one that I have specifically wanted to talk about, because this is a big debate among people who love these kinds of games, is the mechanic of the hacking minigame. Mm-hmm.

[00:20:07] And I want to compare and contrast that with the mechanic of hacking that is just a skill check. My thought is that hacking minigame makes hacking as a simple skill check look like shit. The inverse of that is it's frustrating when it is a minigame, but, like, your skill is so low that you literally cannot do it.

[00:20:30] My take is we have to recall when we are ranking these mechanics that we should not take into account quality of execution. Because I imagine you're thinking of Deus Ex Human Revolution where the hacking minigame is terrible. And in that sense, yes, the hacking minigame is very bad. However, minigames are fun. Like, on average, they are fun games.

[00:20:56] And I would say that even the Deus Ex One hacking mechanic is a type of minigame. It's just you stand there until the bar goes down, and the better you are at hacking, the faster the bar goes. But the game is how confident are you in standing here with essentially your eyes closed perfectly still. Like, do you think that's safe? And that's a minigame in itself. That's true.

[00:21:22] And with that as well, also, with hacking in the original Deus Ex, not only do you get in faster if your hacking level is higher, you also can stay in the computer longer before getting locked out. And you can do more, because I know that you could turn off the turrets, but if you're really good, you can make turrets shoot bad guys. Right.

[00:21:45] Although, although, being able to do those things is essentially a simple skill check, right? Because it's based on your level. Correct. But consider this. This is also something that could make a hacking minigame. You could have a hacking minigame that, if you actually designed it correctly, you could have degrees of success. And this was something that they had in the terrible Deus Ex Human Revolution hacking minigame, where there was, like, non-essential things that you could go to.

[00:22:13] Which they improved that a bit in Mankind Divided. It's still basically the same game, but they tightened up the timing, and it is a bit more fun. I didn't play that game, so I don't know. But I'll take your word for it. But the point being that you can design a minigame with degrees of success, and thus, you can build that into the actual gameplay itself, rather than just having a skill check. For me, it's just a skill check flat with nothing that you can do about it is always going to be less fun than some gameplay.

[00:22:42] Unless we're talking about Disco Elysium. Because the gameplay is just talking. Yeah, I'm curious where you come down on this, Joe. Do you have strong feelings one way or the other? I am thinking of hacking as a skill versus hacking as just, like, a thing. And the thing I have arrived at is that if there is a skill, which is to say there's a stat related to hacking, it's one of those things where it's like, you gotta pick it. Like, lockpicking, you gotta pick it.

[00:23:09] Because it's, if you, obviously you don't have to, but the way I always rationalize it is it's like, this is the skill that gives line of sight into more of the game. So by not doing it, I am locking myself out. So if the hacking minigame is not tied to a skill, I would say it's the best. In general, I would put it at like a B or a C would have to require, like, no, I would say a B.

[00:23:39] I would put it at a B. It very rarely takes anything away. It's at its worst, like, a little annoying puzzles, kind of, sometimes. But that's where I'm at. Yeah, and I think that's an interesting line of thought that I had not looked into, which is, like, if hacking, if the hacking, the hacking skill check requires there to be a hacking stat. A hacking minigame could benefit from it, but it doesn't necessarily require it.

[00:24:08] It could just be that the stat is how good are you at this game in real life. It physically hurts me to play a Fallout game and not have lockpicking and hacking, like, kind of juiced. Like, you just fucking need, like, oh. Yes, yes, because it's like, oh, this game, you can have any builds you want. They're all viable.

[00:24:28] Like, yeah, but if you don't pick the open the fun boxes full of goodies skill, I can't open the box full of fucking goodies, can I? I have to do that. So, in your estimation, any kind of interface, let's call it a hacking interface, right? The interface needs to exist. It's not sufficient for it to just pop up and be like, hack? Yes, you hacked it.

[00:24:58] There needs to be something more interactive than that for it to truly feel like hacking? I say yes. Here's my take. I just play Nine Souls, where there's an extremely basic hacking thing, which is just when you hack something, it shows some directional arrows. And you put them in on your D-pad. And if you fail, nothing fucking happens. You just try again. Okay. And I thought that was fine. Like, in terms of gameplay, it's nothing.

[00:25:27] However, I felt like I was hacking. Sure. Oh, actually, there's one time when it matters. Because you need to hack something fast, because you have to hack while you're in a fight. Right. And that was fun. So that's why I'm pro-hacking minigame. There needs to be an interface. There needs to be something I do. Even if, again, it's just Deus Ex, and what I'm doing is praying that I can stand still long enough to not die.

[00:25:55] The interface must feature cubes. Yes. That is non-negotiable. Yeah, it's computers, dude. That's what's inside. Right, exactly. Yeah, it's the computer shape. Did you play, anyone play Nier Automata? No, it's a hacking. Whatever. How do you say that? Automata. Automata, sorry. Actually, I don't even know. I've only read it. I think it's Automata. Yeah, that said, there is a hacking mechanic in that, but it's just like a bullet hell.

[00:26:24] It's so fun. Oh. And that's not tied to skill. It's just like, are you good at arcade games? Yeah. You become a little triangle in a black and white world, and you shoot stuff. I'm going to throw back at you that, for me, this presents a problem, because I'm not very good at shooters, and I do want to feel like I am good at hacking in a game.

[00:26:48] So this, I think what we're coming down to here is that it's a very, very delicate balance, because you want to present something that gives you the experiential feel of, you know, I'm in. Yes. But you don't want to do it in such a way that the gameplay gets in the way of the feeling of immersion. And I think you're right that cubes are the key to all of this. It's cubes. Cubes that are a fidget toy.

[00:27:18] That's what I need. Yeah. My thinking is that this is almost a definitional C. Right in the middle, it all depends on execution. Yeah. Hacking is a skill check. If we're considering that a different mechanic, I'm putting that in F. Really? Yeah. You would rather not have hacking at all? Than have hacking as a simple skill check? Yeah. Because at that point, it's just like, just let me use the computer. Just like, let me always use the computer.

[00:27:48] Let me press E in front of monitor. Yeah, I see. Okay. Okay. So hold on. Sorry. One more then. What about the example, have you played Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines? Yeah. Okay. That's a simple skill check. But it's funny because when you go in and you do the hack, you see just the password start to get typed in. And you're not the one typing it in. You are watching yourself type in a password. And that shit is fucking hilarious.

[00:28:18] Okay. I forgot that that happened. I can be convinced to put it in E. If you can give me another funny example from a different game, I could be convinced to put it in D. But it can't be in C because hacking with a mini game is in C. Not off the top of my head, I'm afraid. Then it's E. Love it. Love it. Love it. This one I put in just moments before we started recording.

[00:28:47] But I think it is very, it's an immersive sim classic. I don't know any other games that do this. You get a map, but it sucks. Love it. So I did not play the Thief games. My understanding is like Thief loves to give you a shitty map. Yes. I love this. I genuinely do. And there's a video that I always rant and rave about whenever I get the opportunity to talk about these games. And let me find again what it was called.

[00:29:16] I think it's called Thief vs. AAA Gaming. I've seen that recommended to me. Yeah. So that basically one of the big things he talks about in that video. Is how the shitty map that doesn't fucking work. It forces your brain to think about spatial design in a different way. You're no longer just able to follow the mini map in the corner or pull up the pause menu and see where you are. You have to actually reckon with the space.

[00:29:46] Another thing that's really fun that Thief does is you will get a map that used to be accurate. Like it was accurate at the time. But it's not anymore. I think both of those are actually really really fun. I would argue that the way that Silent Hill 2 does it fucking sucks dog dick where you just have to check every single door. But, you know. What do you mean check every? I haven't played so I don't know. Yeah. Well, in Silent Hill 2 you will find maps of the different locations.

[00:30:15] And they are maps that you'll see where all of the doorways are. And basically what you have to do is you have to check every single doorway to see if the door opens or not. And there are doors that will open. There are doors that will be locked. And there will be doors that will never open. And as you go through on the map in red ink it basically pencils in on the map which of the doors is or is not functional. Also penciling in walls that exist where they didn't used to and things like that.

[00:30:45] Executionally this is something that is really cool that can work sometimes. In Silent Hill 2 it's terrible. Because you're just like jiggling every handle every two seconds. Exactly. Exactly. I want to also be clear because when I told this to Joe he mentioned an old bugaboo of ours that we always complain. About which is that the game control has the worst map ever. And I'm like that's not you get a map that sucks. That is the map UI is poorly designed. In Thief the UI of the map is great.

[00:31:14] Because you press the map button and you're looking at a hand drawn map that your guy really has. Yes. And the fact that the drawing on that paper sucks is not a UI issue. It is a in fiction like he can only get his hands on a map that sucks. That's exactly right. And the way that he gets those maps varies based on the level. Like and in some cases he'll manage to get like an actual blueprint. That happens sometimes.

[00:31:44] But for the most part it's just whoever in his world was able to pass him a map at some point. And generally speaking these are drawn out in such a way where it's based on who had the most recent decent information. It kind of reminds me of those maps of the US that the French explorers made way back in the day. Yes. Like have you ever seen the one where it's like the map of Michigan and they and it just looks like a big dick and they think there's a mountain range in the middle for some reason. Huh. No I have not. I'll see if I can find that real quick. It's very funny.

[00:32:14] We were just passing through but we think it looks like this. Yeah. This was something that I wondered as a kid and I never learned and I feel now too embarrassed to ask as an adult. But it's like in the old days before you could go up in the sky how did you make a map? Were you just walking with a pencil and like every step you took you moved the pencil a little bit forward? It's like Entronautic. You map by walking. You gotta just fill out your grid.

[00:32:43] Yeah yeah yeah that makes sense. That makes sense. I love the map that sucks. I just dropped in chat by the way a map that sucks. This is a map of Michigan. What's a dick? And it looks like a dick and you can see that there's a mountain range in the middle of Michigan which I never knew there was one of those. Lake Superior is just a complete circle. Yep. What the fuck is Poo Ants Lake? There is no Poo Ants Lake. I'm sorry. That doesn't be. Is that supposed to be Green Bay?

[00:33:12] Oh I bet it is. I bet that probably because you think about where Wisconsin is. Yeah. Damn. Damn. This map sucks. If I had to steal from Detroit and I got this map before my mission, I, okay. You'd figure it out. So I have two things to say. One, like all great immersive sim things, what it's really doing is it's funny. Yes. Immersive sim is more than any other game is very funny

[00:33:42] because it has all these funny mechanics that together allow you to do funny things that the game did not intend. And that's great. Most games you can only do what they intend and none of it's funny. The, another thing that it does, especially in Thief is it, it makes a game that's really, really great. However, you have to like do work to, to get to the fun.

[00:34:07] There's a reason that like most maps are completely accurate and you see where your guy is on them in real time. And they're always on the screen. It's because it makes you get to the fun with no friction. When you get a map that's fully wrong, that's friction. That's exactly it. The full map plus mini map is guaranteeing that I will go on autopilot, effectively looking at a compass when there's like all this 3d shit I'm walking past.

[00:34:36] A bad map would make me smell the flowers. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. But also if you are, if you are not mentally ready to like play a game, that's gonna like yell at you and like make fun of you and like have, have some contempt for you. Like you're not always in that headspace, especially as you fucking get past 30. I mean, it, it demands a different type of attention.

[00:35:03] And I think it's not the type of attention that modern gamers are, uh, primed to have, you know, everything is so broken down into follow the adventure line, get the quest marker, unlock the fucking hidden, whatever. And with a game like, like thief, like Deus ex, whatever, it's all about seeing what you can find, uh, in, in a different way from something like, you know, elder scrolls or whatever, which is,

[00:35:32] I guess also about exploration, but in a different way, because it's, it's about like, I don't know, finding, I'm also not a big fan of like Bethesda games generally, but I do not like the elder scrolls world. It feels very bland to me and always has. Yeah. And I, I don't, I started up Skyrim once I got an hour in and I was just like, I don't like none of, I don't want more of this. Like, I don't want to explore because I don't want this. And then I stopped. Uh, but yeah,

[00:36:02] I see what you mean. Like it's exploring, but it's, it's very, it's like, it, it feels as though like I, we have all these dishes ready for you. Which one do you want to have first? Uh, there is, uh, some joy in a game that's just like, you want a tasty dinner? Well, I don't know where the one might fucking be. And like stands there and you have to like figure out a way to like get around it. Okay. Sure. But tasty dinner, which like that's, that's very valuable. If it's a well-designed immersive sim,

[00:36:31] this is the other thing that I always say about this shit. If it's a well-designed immersive sim, you know where the tasty meal is going to be? It's either going to be in the dining room or the kitchen because that's where those things are found. And I mean that very seriously. Yes. Yes. I, yeah, dude, I totally agree. Also, uh, other, other legendary shitty maps and video games, uh, the Liberty Island map from the original Deus Ex. This is a classic. It's so small. I just accidentally sent you the smallest image you've ever seen, but. This is a stamp. This is from letters.

[00:37:01] I've got maybe a slightly bigger version of it. Yeah, here we go. This is a, this is a terrible map. This is the map of Liberty Island from Deus Ex. It is technically a map of Liberty Island, but that's really all. All it is. I love this shit. It's my favorite. Is this a big part of the game? It's the first level. It's like a pretty major, like, It's the map of the whole first level. You know what it would be like, Joe, is if it, there was a,

[00:37:29] if Mario gave you a map of Bob on battlefield, that was just it from above. Yes. It's just like. That's exactly what it is. So there's a mountain in the middle. I, I knew that from, from the beginning. Uh, okay. It's, I love this. Use this map as the episode art, just so people can really fucking see that shit. Are we thinking, uh, C or B? I don't think it can be A, because it's too high friction for, for a normal game.

[00:37:58] This is for a game for enthusiasts. Sure. It's the map that sucks. So, it's by nature, a little more niche. So we're thinking B or C? I think B is as high as it gets. I vote B, uh, just on the basis of a counterbalance to the mini map walking, don't look at anything type of gameplay that we are now much more accustomed to. Uh, I am firmly in the A camp on this one,

[00:38:25] but I understand that as you are not genre enthusiasts in the same way that I am, B is the compromised position. That's the position I am willing to take. Listen, it's not that we're not genre enthusiasts. It's that, that this is not a list of immersive sim mechanics. This is a list of game mechanics. Sure. Mechanics that work extremely well in immersive sims do not work in all things. No, you're right. For example, I was in Mario and I got a map. Well, first of all, if I'm playing Mario and I get a map, I would say I don't want that. I think a better analogy is like you,

[00:38:55] you literally start GTA and then you pull up the map and it's of the United States. Right. Or it's like a tourist was in Liberty city for like a week. And like, this is what I, this is like the gist, right? And it's like, that's not helpful. Okay. But it would be pretty funny if Michael had to draw his own map of the city. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Okay. And Franklin also had to draw his own,

[00:39:25] uh, and then they could put them together. There you go. Uh, I know I'm B. I think it's a B. I think that's a fair thing. Sorry. The, the, the, the one last thing I was thinking, can you imagine what Trevor's map would look like? No, I can't. I haven't played GTA five. He's like the kooky one. He's nuts. Okay. And his map would be extremely cool. All right. And we only have time for one more item from this list. Um, I believe there are two more that you put,

[00:39:53] but I think we both agree which one of these two, uh, is more conducive to discussion. Hmm. Rope arrow. Josh, for those who don't know, haven't played thief. What is a rope arrow? That sounds good. What could that be? Well, it's an arrow with a rope on it. What would you use that for? Well, let's say for instance, you were trying to scale the wall of a mansion, you know,

[00:40:21] and you noticed a large wooden post sort of poking out of the mansion. Well, if you had your handy rope arrow, you'd go ahead and shoot it. Right out of your bow. And it would hit that wooden post. A rope would drop down. You could grab that rope and you could scale it to get into the thing in, in the classic thief games. Anything that is made of wood can be, uh, hit with the rope arrow. And it allows for all sorts of crazy shit. Uh, that also tracks with hook shot,

[00:40:51] uh, logic because like, I think in the Zelda games, if it's wooden, you can just do that to it. It's fine. Yeah. I mean the, the hook shot actually is just the rope arrow. It's, it's essentially the same thing. It's the rope arrow with less freedom because I think the thing that makes immersive Sims so funny in the rope arrow is such a funny thing. It's like the rope arrow is like the, the, um, non sci-fi version of the sticky grenade from Deus Ex where it's like the game. If you know what you're doing, like the game just becomes how many sticky grenades can I jump on?

[00:41:20] Because you can land, you can put a grenade on the wall, jump on it and fully stand on it. Um, um, and then like do it again until you're a hundred feet in the air. Uh, just like the way that you, you set up these rules and it's very, you know what this is? This is very hundreds of beavers. It's, you set up these rules and like, here's how it is. The rope arrow is an arrow that a rope comes down. You can climb on the rope. You can shoot it on any wood. And it's just like, well, this opens up everything because there's a lot of wood in the world.

[00:41:49] And I don't think you tested every single atom of wood in the game to make sure that putting a rope there wouldn't break the sequence in a huge way. Of course, these games are designed so that like, if you break the sequence in a huge way, their response is hell yeah, brother, instead of no. So like they don't need to do that. However, it's funny. It's a low tech portal gun. It is. It is. I think any sort of mechanic in a game that lets you move in a,

[00:42:18] in a nutty way where you can really break shit is always good. I feel like that's why I enjoyed Dishonored as much as I did because right when I was getting sick of climbing and finding out where to go, you can just kind of teleport to wherever you look. But on the subject of rope ladder, this seems like an elemental thing. I know it's Thief. Thief is sort of like the big daddy of rope ladder, but like, this is like cartoon logic. This is an Acme anvil. This is important.

[00:42:49] Yes. Yes. Uh, cartoon is great because I think it, if you think about it, it's pretty clear that like, if you tried to have an entire grown man's weight supported by a arrow, an arrow sticking into a plank of wood. Yeah, no, that wouldn't work out. It would break. And here's more evidence that this is just, just good from every angle. We're talking about a thief, but rope arrow works beautifully in 2D. Spelunky has them. Uh, it's,

[00:43:19] it's, this is a basic concept that just is at home in any game and climbing a regular ladder like sucks. Yeah. It does. Oh, we need to put ladders on this. Climbing a rope that is attached to an arrow. Great. The thing I can't do in thing. I couldn't do in gym. Yeah. No, I couldn't do it either. I never, my class, my school never did that in gym. And I was like,

[00:43:47] I hated gym class in high school and just every day it was like the fear of like, is this one? They're going to finally do the fucking rope. Like, are they going to do that to me now? My, my tiny, uh, upper arms will finally be exposed for the world. Yeah. What are we thinking? I'm thinking, I mean, obviously this is very high because it's funny. It's good. Also just, this is, you know, we're trying to get a little bit more of a,

[00:44:17] a larger perspective than just the thief games, but to make it a smaller perspective and make it just the thief games. I love like, cause you're, you're guys not supposed to kill. You're very bad at it. And it's not, it makes your shit worse when you kill guys. I love that you have a bow and arrow, historically a killing guys item. And it's like, what is it for? Well, that's for, that's for water, moss, and rope. That's right.

[00:44:47] And every once in a while to shoot an arrow to distract a guy. Yeah. Like a regular arrow. Yeah. So that he must've imagined that. Oh, and, and, and flame arrows and gas arrows. Don't forget. I did forget. Thank you for reminding me. Um, is this a, is this a, I think a, I also want to add just from a design perspective in the thief context, the fact that it's wood is wonderful because rather it sticks to any piece of wood because you don't have to like, uh,

[00:45:17] signpost that with like yellow paint all the time. That's right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. They fucked it rather than being able to shoot a rope arrow at any piece of wood. Now there are specific places to shoot the rope arrow and it like gives you a stupid little,

[00:45:46] like a, uh, a transparent indicator on your HUD. Uh, that's like, this is where you can shoot the rope arrow. It's like a little icon. Fucking stupid. They blew it, which also I think points to just how good this mechanic is. And, and, and, and incredible that they would botch it so extremely. It's, it's only, mm, the reason it's so good is because it lets you go nutty because like, because like if, if these rules are as you described them,

[00:46:14] like that means like truly incredible sections of the map are just available to you. If you've got the arrows and people, I mean, especially this is, this is the whole thing about like a, a tragedy of a niche game genre, which is just like niche genres should exist. There should be things that only a small audience likes. That's fine. But the industry will not allow that because it has to make a certain level of money. And anything less than that is unacceptable.

[00:46:42] Even if the ambition was to make that unacceptable amount of money and that unacceptable amount of money is technically, we all know this. We all know this. However, you got to make it frictionless and the, no, no, no. You got to have some nutty shit that lets you fuck with the game. I'm going to go ahead and make the argument. This is an S tier, an honest to goodness S tier, because if you think about it as like, should a game have this right? Imagine super Mario with a rope ladder, a rope arrow, like mechanic.

[00:47:11] Imagine fucking Zelda tears, the kingdom with a rope arrow, like mechanic. But you kind of have rope arrow on your hands at all times in tears of the kingdom, but that's not against it. That's, that's just right. This is like jump in terms of elementalness, which is to say you can easily imagine any video game character jumping because they probably can't anyway. But if they couldn't, you could just imagine like unless you're agent 47, he can't jump for some reason. Yeah. With the Bionic commander guy or whatever.

[00:47:41] I could imagine any video game using the power of my mind. And I, I see it. I see it. Okay. SimCity. Oh, there's a rope arrow. It works. It just works in any context. It always works. It's always funny because it's a funny thing to see. Yo, yo, I'm convinced. I'm writing it down right now. It's an S. Let's go. It's an S folks. We have, this is what we have ranked in this little segment. Learning backstory from audio tapes.

[00:48:11] NPCs left flying around. That's a A rope arrow. That's a full S guards. Whose imagination? It must've been. That's a A plus hacking minigames. That's a C hacking as a simple skill check. No minigame involved. That's a E devs. Get the bullet unless they make it funny. You get a map, but it sucks. That's a full B. I love this. I think that we've really hit the mark here. Agreed. Hell yeah. Josh, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Please plug your shit. Absolutely. Well,

[00:48:41] I co-host a podcast called The Worst of All Possible Worlds. Both of the fine lads on this show have been on our show to talk about Chrono Trigger. You should go listen to that episode. It's really good. And the other ones. They're all good. You should listen to all of them, but you should especially listen to the Chrono Trigger one. I've started being able to tell you guys' voices apart. I'm like a power listener. Good for you. Usually it takes about 50, 60 episodes before you can start doing that. So you're ahead of the curve.

[00:49:10] And yeah, I also just, you know, I post a fair bit also on Blue Sky. It's at Bosch.worstpossible.world, I think. And then you can also just find out whatever else I'm up to. I direct theater, do some other shit. JoshBorman.com is my website. So you can go check that out too. Hell yeah. Woo! Sickle mode, sickle mode, sickle mode, sickle mode, sickle mode, sickle mode, sickle mode, sickle mode, sickle mode, sickle mode, sickle mode.

[00:49:39] Not everything's piss and cum. Just most of it. Piss and cum is so funny. If you want to make something a joke and you can say like, this is cum. It's why I never, it's like, like driven into the ground. But like the thing where it's, are you scared? Are you going to piss? Maybe cum? Like that one. That's just like, just very weird. I love that just because it's just like, yeah, body fluids do all of them. Okay. Let's get started.

[00:50:10] This is what I was going to like do the intro, but I just recalled that this is going to be segment two in an episode that is already in progress. So we can just, Oh yeah. Dylan's here, everybody. Remember him? Woo. We are joined by Dylan. Behind the scenes. We're really smoking the whole pack lately. It's very fun. We're doing a lot of game rankings with friends. I'm glad I came up with this. And I was like, Tom, we should do this more. And he's like, I'm going to punish you for that.

[00:50:39] Joe loves, he's okay. Okay. I've said in the past that Joe, one of those things to do is he will just like decide that something is his thing that he's going to say for the next couple months. Um, and he'll just say it. And then anytime it would be slightly appropriate to say it. He's like, I'm going to say my thing. And his thing has been Tom hates the game rankings. And I cannot emphasize enough how the only reason we didn't do it is because we forgot about it. Yeah, that's it. And then like, Joe,

[00:51:09] it's like, we should do it again. I'm like, yeah, totally. And then we forget about it. And he reads that as like, Tom killed me. It's true. I forgot about it. You hate it. It's like, that's how it goes. It's like when, uh, well, really anyone, but like a person who makes YouTube videos, when they make a YouTube video about something other than the thing they've made a million videos about. they just get everyone is like, oh man, are you still going to play, you know, escape from Tarkov or whatever? It's like, yeah, I,

[00:51:39] I literally have to, or I'll be homeless. This is so unusual because every YouTube person I'm aware of, uh, their, their sort of arc is they put out a video that really puts them over and like they're, they're big now. And then they just stop. Uh, maybe like three years later, they put out like a three hour video. That's like a masterpiece. Then they're like, this one was, I, I'm never doing this again. I'm going back to shorter videos more often. And I'm like that. And then they never make anything. Yeah.

[00:52:08] I'm going to make shorter videos more often as a sentence that has never been true ever. Yeah. I'm hiding my zombie bite when I say that. Dylan, you were Jordy and all of our fucking skits. I really was. I really was. You're all of your skits. It's so, it's so disrespectful to yourself. I didn't mean to say, I was, I was struck by, I can't believe I used that word. Oh my God.

[00:52:36] That's like what you're like condescending mom would say about it. All your cute little skits. Like you can call it that in your head, but it's bad to put that out in the world. You know, you were Jordy in our, in our Shakespeare plays. Thank you. Yeah. That was my severance, man. Yeah. Uh, and. Oh, I know we have thoughts and we're not going to get too into it. Cause we don't have to get into that, but, uh, it's pretty good show.

[00:53:06] I'll say. Remember when episode three came out and everyone was like, I can't believe they're pulling the bandaid off about this plot development instead of dragging it out, which a worse show would do. And then they dragged it out crazy. But then it was like, kind of worth it. I will see. I liked the finale. That's what I liked. I liked the finale too. I'll, I think if the show ended there, I wouldn't really complain about it. Like,

[00:53:34] I feel like if it was a movie, it would have ended there. Yeah. I say, I said this when we did the severance episode, if the, with season one only, that's like, I, it would be one of the best shows of all time. That's a perfect show. Yeah, totally. Season two is great, but it has some, some pacing issues, I think. Yeah. It has a pacing issues. It has people talking in that one piece way where it's like, like it's, I think it may be time to talk about a certain man. And it's like,

[00:54:02] in one piece they can get away with that because it's cartoons for fucking babies. And they're talking in a ridiculous way because they look like Looney Tunes men. Yeah. And there's like, there's like moments on severance too, where it's just like, why are you, how are you in curious in this moment? Like, all you have to do is say, Hey, what? I was talking to Joe about it and describing why it was bugging me.

[00:54:28] And the thing that like my breakthrough way of describing it is none of the characters are allowed to do anything because anything they do would be informed by the information they know. And we're not allowed to know that yet. So, yes, they just kind of stand there. Yeah. anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about. We're here to rank game mechanics. We're here to talk about fucking video games. So, so we put a bunch of shit in this document about fighting games. And, uh,

[00:54:57] I don't know if you know this about me and Joe, but we don't know if it's not smash brothers, we don't know that shit. I would love to be better at fighting games. Part of my physical therapy recovery as I like get my hip in and now like sort of shoulder fixed, uh, as I fix range of motion, you realize like, I've been kind of like fucked up for a while. Right. And you might think like, Oh, I'm going to be sad for all the things I could have like maybe done different. It's literally, I could have been better at smash brothers.

[00:55:25] I could have been better at smash brothers because like I could, if I could get that, you have to pick up fighting games because you have to see what your like natural potential is. Yeah. I just, I remember very distinctly trying to do like the reverse are running donkey Kong kick where you, he has like this little back foot kick. That's amazing. And like the, Oh yeah. The advanced techniques to be able to do that, obviously from a forward run and you spin midair and everything. And like, what do they call that? Uh, RAR. Yeah. And like, yeah,

[00:55:55] because of the range of motion thing there, I like do it sometimes, but not others. And I was like, is this, is this God trying to stop me from getting too good? But anyway, Dylan's like a fighting game guy, you know, about frame data. Yeah. I do. Sadly. I remember someone asked me to Dylan ever finish, uh, his ambient music project, take good care of Farfetch'd that he mentioned on the show.

[00:56:23] And I asked you about what the progress was. And your response was just a screenshot of your, uh, hours logged in guilty gear stride. Yeah. My bad. You play all of them. Like you, like you will rotate through. Yeah. That's the looking at my hours in street fighter six. Now it's pretty hefty. That's why I think you're a real sicko. Cause like, I play them all. Yeah. Like a good friend. Kevin. I play all the old ones.

[00:56:53] Guesto. Like you put a bajillion hours in a counter strike, but you're just like a rotating addict. Yeah. I can't, I can't help myself. Well, I think your bona fides. And if someone's like going to tell me that it's actually pronounced some insane way, don't your bona fides have been proved. Uh, so I think everyone now can agree that you, you have what it takes to rank fighting game mechanics, uh, accurately and with clear eyes. So let's just start with, I think perhaps the most,

[00:57:21] iconic fighting game mechanic cancels, cancels. I, when you started that sentence, I was like, what is he going to say? Cancels. Cancels are pretty great. So just in terms of defining it, like the point of fighting game is not to have to watch all the animations. You hate that guy you're controlling and it sucks when he does all of the, you only have 99 seconds to get this thing in the books. Yeah. And canceling allows you to start the next one immediately with like, you would,

[00:57:51] you know, that part of after the attack where you like breathe heavy and go, Oh, that was crazy. Uh, you would just immediately flow into the next move. So here's my thought. Why do you hate artists? I mean, if you, if a game came out that had very crappy animation where like there was only a few frames and people snapped back to idle in a very jarring way that didn't look realistic and had no characterization. There was no acting to their motion. You would say bad game. Yuck. However,

[00:58:21] why does all fighting game players strive to destroy this from the game when it was lovingly put in? Tell me that. Answer me that. What developers have realized is that people do like that shit where like the guy does a big punch and then for about 45 frames after he goes, Oh, what does he go? Dylan, what does he go? Sorry. He goes like, Oh, that's also my impression of a dark souls man being,

[00:58:51] uh, being hit by a sword. Um, that's a dark souls man laughing at a great joke at standup night. What developers have realized is people, they love that stuff, especially if like a sexy woman is doing it, but they just want to watch the clip on YouTube. So they, they, you've still put all the effort in to those things, knowing that that's going to get up on YouTube.

[00:59:19] You're going to get 4k Chun-Li idol animations, body swap with Cammy, and then that's going to sell the game. But when you're actually playing the game, frankly, the last thing I want to see is any character doing anything. Cause that's going to piss me off. So I need my character to be doing some, so much bullshit that the other guy can't even get anything done because then that's half as much bullshit.

[00:59:48] That's just one guy doing shit instead of two guys doing shit. It can't really start it as a bug, right? Like it was a street fighter thing. Uh, and then they're like, you should be able to do this. Yeah, so I think, I think the idea in Street Fighter 2, actually, I can't remember if maybe it was just the fact that the, you could combo at all was a, was a bug. Incredible. But they, they thought it was cool. So they added a combo counter.

[01:00:16] So here's my thought about cancels. This is just some fucking chores. I remember when I was reading about L canceling in Melee when I was like 11. And my take on that was, oh my God, don't tell me I have to do this. Um, and luckily none of my friends knew about it. So I didn't. And the game was better. This to me reads like, like this is why I don't want to get into fighting games. Cause I'm like going to play with someone who knows about cancels. And it's going to be like, like you say,

[01:00:45] like my guy's not going to be able to do a single thing. The game is like, I may as well put the controller down and just watch it and have it be an execution simulator. And I don't want to have to learn cancels. It doesn't seem fun to have to learn the cancels. You have to learn how to steer the car. You have to learn how to use the knife. You have to learn how to swim, you know, I am so glad you're saying this because Tom has this, argument that he goes to. And it's essentially like,

[01:01:15] I'm actually a baby who will never take in new information. Have you considered that? And, uh, it, it does work most of the time. Cause it's not like a lie, but yes, you have to learn this. I would actually argue the opposite, which is just like we already don't think about breathing. I feel like we've integrated canceling into ourselves just mentally. Because you, it comes up, this is a thing. It comes up in other games. There's absolutely, cancels.

[01:01:43] I feel like there's basically cancels in real life. Every time you pick up a cord in one hand and then using the same hand, unplug a cord and then plug the other cord in, in one smooth motion. You've done a cancel. You've done a cord cancel. You didn't have to pick up the second cord. You already had it. You know, you just queued up that move. You were doing the inputs and then boom, you plugged in the other cord. Yeah.

[01:02:13] And I, I feel like a lot of people probably just do it intuitively without even knowing it's canceling. Like I, you want, exactly. Yeah. A lot of people don't even realize they're canceling. They're just doing the move as fast as they can. And it comes out. I literally thought canceling was more involved and then not when I make Ryu do the spinning kick right after the Hadouken. Like that's all it is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's like, there's other cancels like guilty gear has like the Roman cancel and, and the L cancel that is real.

[01:02:43] Did you say Roman? Yeah. Yeah. So in guilty gear, Oh, in guilty gear, there's this mechanic called a Roman cancel and it lets you cancel anything. Uh, even nothing. So let's say you're standing still. You can cancel it. You're doing a dragon punch. You can cancel it. You're throwing a fireball. Cancel it. I think it's short for romantic. Like it's a romantic cancel. So you can combo shit.

[01:03:12] You can't normally. That's what you're being given. Yes. Yeah. So like you could do a really huge move that normally would end your combo, but right after it hits, you can cancel it and then you can kind of keep going or you can do irritability. It's irritating shit too. Like if you have like a move that makes you run across the screen and punch them, you can run across the screen and then cancel it before the punch comes out and then grab them. You know, what the fuck? What even like, it's awesome. It's so good.

[01:03:42] It's like the greatest shit in the universe. I would like to put forward that regular canceling just looks like absolute shit compared to what is being described now. Yeah. Oh, that's the thing about the Roman cancel too. Depending on when you cancel a move, they have different colors. So like if you've hit it right after you've already hit them, you get the red Roman cancel and you can do the yellow Roman cancel. So they all have crazy trumped up names like YRC.

[01:04:12] There's force Roman cancel where you have to hit it in a really specific window on really specific moves. This is fucking insane. There's so much work and specificity and granularity built into like, just like stop, stop. Like that's all. That's the thing about cancel is just stop. Yeah. Don't let the game do the thing it wants to. No, I don't. Okay.

[01:04:41] So if there's one thing about this list of game mechanics is that we don't split hairs and really get specific. I don't think Roman cancel gets its own thing. I think that's just, we're just going to take that as a really interesting implementation. The extreme cancel. Yeah. I would agree with that. So Dylan, I have a feeling that you're positive on cancel. Oh yeah. I was going to ask what is the highest tier available? That's going to be S. Is S, are we going S? I don't know.

[01:05:10] I feel like I think about cancels every day of my life. And I think about what I would do if I could do cancels. Like, do you guys have the experience of imagining that you're able to do a video game move in real life? Yeah. I can just double jump though. I do it. Gotcha. I, I think about being able to do a Roman cancel in real life on a daily basis. So I do think it's S. It's at least a,

[01:05:40] and this is why it's gotta be. It's so good. It's a foundational. It's like a housekeeping thing. Even in like, if I play a metroidvania, there's going to be a part where I just like do all the shit to see if I can like cancel anything into other stuff. Like, I'm just going to like, totally. Like, if I'm doing my backdash, can I jump and then do another backdash really fast if I do just a tiny jump? Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. And I think what it is about canceling is you always have this mental fidget. You're just like,

[01:06:10] what else can I connect this to? Hmm. Mm-hmm. It's, it's kind of like when you're playing an instrument, you know, like it feels really satisfying to play like short little fast melodies, you know, even if you never end up learning any songs or like, yeah, but check this shit out. So, uh, Tom, I think if anything, you're going to be the person dragging the overall ranking down. Yeah. I'm thinking, I, I,

[01:06:38] I don't disagree that it's very high. My only thought is S is, we don't want to be willy nilly with S. S is stuff that is always good all the time. I'll say looking at everything else on the page, there's only maybe two other ones I would consider for S and really just kind of one. Okay. Well, that's nice, but I don't know if that changes.

[01:07:08] I don't, I'm not starting. I just, you know, you're not, you're not going to, you're not going to flood the zone with S. Really, a really hot one. Yes. Well, that's the whole point. That's why it's fun. Um, I'm going to, okay, you know what? I'm going to be, I'm going to be nice. I'm feeling good this morning. I'll let you have it. It's S. Cancels is S. Even if it's not in a fighting game, it's playing the game so you don't have to look at it, which is good because it's a video game. Like, it, it's ethical to put it in S. Oh my God, Joe.

[01:07:37] The faster you play a video game, the more video games you can play. Yeah, this is the argument that you should have been going for since the beginning. Video games are sinful to look at and cancels. You look at them less. Yes, that's true. Okay. Perfect. Uh, I think the next one that we have to do, if cancels is the most iconic fighting game mechanic, I think the second most, uh, iconic is going to be rollback net code. Um, which as far, so I, I don't know what this is. I'm going to give you what I think it is. You tell me if it's accurate. Okay.

[01:08:07] Okay. Rollback net code is some words that you don't put in the game right away. But then later when the game needs to pop, because it's been flagging in popularity, you say rollback net code and all the people go, yay and start playing the game again. Um, yeah, I would say rollback net code is the thing you patch into the game when you want me to play it. Because if your game has rollback net code, I will play it. What the fuck is this shit?

[01:08:38] Okay. So do you really want me to explain it? Here's a better way. Actually, uh, uh, you don't have rollback net code on a game. Explain how much it sucks to us and what, what you're looking at. Okay. That's a good way. All right. So a game that doesn't have rollback net code, and you will recall this one, a little smash hit from back in the day called super smash brothers ultimate. Yeah.

[01:09:02] Now you may recall when you're playing against someone who has a ass burger King wifi connection. So everyone that the game itself would like slow down or even freeze for periods of time. Right. Or like you'd skip a couple frames and stuff like that. So that's what happens when the, the game is delay based. Basically both sides of the computer are trying to catch up with one another. And so they have to like kind of take a break and get on the same page.

[01:09:32] That sucks because like, if you're in the middle of doing your inputs or whatever, you don't know when the game stopped. You're probably going to miss whatever input you were doing. Once the game lags in rollback net code, um, the games don't stop for each other. So the game never slows down and never freezes. Instead, if the connection is bad, the game will let the other character kind of go without inputs for a couple of frames.

[01:10:01] And then afterwards it will be like, Oh, that's not what they did. They actually press these buttons and then that character will super fast, do all that stuff. Um, kind of retroactively, um, which does suck, but bear in mind, that's only when the connection is bad. Um, so like they kind of roll back, do the stuff. And then, you know, so on your end, your inputs are seamless, but your opponent,

[01:10:28] it might seem like they're kind of jittering all over the place in extreme examples. They kind of teleport around because the game doesn't know where they are. All the time. I will say that sounds better than the smash brothers experience. Yes. It's just like half, half of every online fight. You're just like looking at a fucking painting. That's yeah. You're literally playing it like a fucking PowerPoint. It's horrible. Yeah. Yeah. Once you've had rollback, you really can't go back. It's, it's tough.

[01:10:58] You can't roll back. Yeah. Joe, you got any thoughts about rollback net code? So I feel like, uh, this just sucks if you don't have it. It's just like your, if your car doesn't have tires, that sucks. Yes. I wouldn't say it's as bad as not having tires. I think it's more like not having like air conditioning. Yeah. Or windows. If you are a fighting game person, it would determine what you would play though. Right? A hundred percent. Man, I,

[01:11:27] I pretty much don't play stuff that doesn't have rollback. I am feeling like this is a almost definitional B, which is to say, yeah, it is a situational mechanic. And there's many, many, many, many games that would not benefit from this at all. However, it is in, in the, is the situations where it is called for, it is critical. And that is a B all over. Yep. I totally agree with that assessment.

[01:11:57] Let's do B. All right. What do you think would be the worst game to have rollback net code? I'm thinking Uno. Yeah. That'd be a ridiculous waste of resources. Well, how annoying would that be? You're like, oh man, they couldn't play anything that turn. And then you play your card and it's like, oh, actually they played a drop four. I don't know. That would be pretty bad. So what do you think should be the next one that we have Dylan rank off of this all list? I want to learn more fighting game words.

[01:12:26] Let's go with the, I've said this. I don't actually know what it means. Footsies. Yeah. I don't know if this is sex. This is not allowed. What is this? Footsies is, um, you know, people will give you a lot of funny definitions for it. This is kind of a hot button topic in the fighting game community. Um, because people don't all agree about what constitutes footsies.

[01:12:56] So footsies, in my opinion, is a form of neutral where both players are on the ground. They both are aware of like, what the other person's best pokes, their best, like long range moves are. And they're trying to get into the range of that move very briefly and then get out of

[01:13:23] the range of that move so that when they can kind of bait their opponent into doing it, and then they can hit them with a sort of counterattack. So what you see is you'll have two players kind of wiggling back and forth around like a certain amount of space, almost like they're trying to push an invisible block back and forth. Um, and they're both waiting for the other person to commit to an option that they can then punish. I, this seems familiar.

[01:13:52] I've seen footage of two fighting game characters. You see it a lot in street fighter is really, uh, notorious for it because. Yeah, it's, it kind of highlights how like at, at high levels, the defensive element of fighting games is, is really strong. And so I feel like they've made games more aggressive because they're worried about people being like, let's see how this game is really played.

[01:14:21] And it's like just two guys kind of wiggling. And that's how it's hard to understand. To me, the wiggling is exciting. I get excited when I see the wiggling, but if I didn't understand fighting games, I'd be like, what the fuck? They're just wiggling. I mean, talking about like, why does this, why does this scene not get enough new blood? What's, what's keeping new players from joining the fighting game community? It's the fucking, but then new players, they want the footsies. They yearn for the footsies.

[01:14:51] Why do they call it that? Why do they call it? Like, I, I don't really know. I, I think it's just because like, you're both like moving around on your feet and you're kind of like, you know, it's like a little bit of a dance. It is, you know, are we going to touch? Are we flirting? Sexual. Yeah. It's very flirtatious. You know, I think there's a lot. What, who, who said it? Santana, that band? No, no, the band is sublime.

[01:15:23] Sorry, Santana. He's the guitarist. Sublime, I believe said that fucking and fighting. It's all the same. Um, yeah, there's totally a sexual element to this. And footsies is the foreplay of it all. So we're going to defer to you on ranking then, because we just learned about it. Uh, I've seen like two Ryus just like move one pixel closer and then away a lot. So that's footsies. Okay. I gotcha. I thought that was just a fidget.

[01:15:52] I thought they were just like stimming. No, no, they're doing it to try and trick the other guy. You know, in like a fighting manga where it's like to a normal person, these two guys have not moved, but because I'm aware of everything about fighting, I know that they're locked in an insane battle of wills in which it's like, that's happening. I saw his trapezius twitch for a half second. And I understand that that, that, that twitch was actually him preparing 10 different types of punches. Yeah.

[01:16:21] And then he was thinking about it. But he didn't. Yeah. That lat twitch indicates that he's ready to do 10 different types of counters. Okay. Okay. I think, see, I'm going to, I'm going to really ache for this to be low because it's, it's a sex word, but I'll defer to you. I think, uh, I actually think it's a little overrated in a way, you know, I feel like people want this to be all fighting games is there. There even is, I don't know if you know,

[01:16:51] there is a game called footsies where it, it completely revolves around this concept. You can only do like a very limited number of, of moves and they all kind of revolve around this concept of footsies. It also has rollback net code. You know what they should do? They should have a fighting game where like just you, every character has a, like a zone in front of them that is like a fixed distance in front of them. And anytime the enemy is in that zone, their bar,

[01:17:20] their health bar just goes down. And that's, get rid of like the hitting, just positioning. They just made a guilty gear character that does that. No! No. Oh my God. Not the newest character, but the character before Dizzy has this move where she puts these golden wings on. And then after 10 seconds, like the wings turn into like a swarm of golden bees. And if you stand in the swarm of bees, even if you block,

[01:17:50] it just drains like half of your health. It's hysterical. It's really bad. You never get a chance to really use it, but it exists. Okay. So what, what is C, C or D? I think it's C or D. I think C. C? I think to put it in D is a little bit much. I think C. When you're considering it in the, in the ecosystem of all video game mechanics, you know, that's all right. Mm-hmm. I can deal with C right in the middle of the bell curve. All right.

[01:18:19] Next one. Dylan, tell me about being safe on block. I have heard this a million times and I have a vague sense of what it might mean, but if someone like asked me to define it, I would be like, I can't. Okay. So you know about frames, right? Yeah. Okay. So let's say I do a little punch and it takes 10 frames to start. And then it's active for two frames. When in those two frames, if you get hit by my fist, you punched.

[01:18:49] And then after that, I have three or four frames where I'm on punching, you know, I'm, I'm doing my kind of thing. We assume that that's the canceled version, right? I would cancel that, but let's say it's an uncancellable normal or something like that. So I'm doing that. Um, and you, you block it.

[01:19:13] That's great for you because this punch is minus on block. So what happens is when the game sees that I've punched you in those two active frames of my fist, it says, Oh, this move just got blocked. So those three or four frames where I'm doing my, the game is like, that is now going to become like five to,

[01:19:40] let's say that's going to become like 10 frames now. And the other guy, he's only going to be blocking. He's going to be stuck blocking for a little bit, but let's say he's going to be stuck blocking for six frames. So he'll be blocking for six frames. And then you're stuck punching for 10 frames. So there's four frames where the other guy can do what he wants while you're still doing the attack. That's, that's actually plus on block.

[01:20:06] So if he could get away without you being able to keep on him, you're negative on block. But if I punched you and the game was like, you know what? Let's keep this guy blocking for 20 frames. And I'm only punching for 10 frames. I'm super safe on block. I'm plus 10 on block. I might even keep hitting you, you know? Um, this, I think it's great when you do it to the other guy,

[01:20:33] but when the other guy is safe on block, I'm upset because that means all I can really do is keep blocking. I, this is, this is a thing that every time I hear people talk about fighting game mechanics and what makes them happy and what makes them angry. I feel like, like all of this would be solved if there wasn't another guy. A game where you stunt on a jump 24 seven.

[01:21:03] Yeah. Uh, why would you ever make some, if it feels like being safe on block is too good. I think being, being plus on block is usually too good. Being just safe. Like, let's say it's like a total zero scenario where you're both done at the same time. No additional risk. That's fine. If everything that you block is punishable, that would be pretty irritating to like you. I mean, I think you should for a,

[01:21:33] to a certain extent, you should be rewarded for hitting your opponent. Even if they block, you know, I think the way they usually kind of dial it in, in fighting games is they'll make like your kind of combo starting moves. Those will be more safe on block. And then your combo enders are unsafe on block. The idea being that you have a few moves to decide if your opponent's blocking or not. And then if they're blocking, you just stop and you're safe.

[01:22:02] But if you overcommit, then you kind of extend yourself into like a, a dangerous position. Okay. Can't stuff be like extra broken and be extra safe on block. Yeah. There's like stuff. Uh, there's a mechanic in guilty gear strive that I'm not a big fan of called guard crush, where basically there are certain moves that if you block them, you're crazy negative. Um,

[01:22:31] so like it's almost worse to block it than to get hit by it. Like Potemkin has a move called, I think it's like, I don't know, Garuda impact or some shit. And you are basically for 40 frames. There's nothing you can do, but try to block. And Potemkin has a move. That's like an insane. Fuck you into the dirt kind of grab. And their grabs are unblockable.

[01:22:59] So it's horrible to get hit by this move that locks you into blocking against the guy with giant hands who wants to rip you in half. Sounds terrible. Yeah, it's miserable. I don't know how we could possibly judge being safe on block as a mechanic. It feels like, uh, maybe it was wrongly worded, but I can't change it now. It's written down. I don't know how I would, uh, judge this. What do you think? I think it's, it's kind of like,

[01:23:27] how do you value, like, how do you value like a wall in a house? You know, you need it, but it gets in the way sometimes. This is just like a foundational component. Yeah. It's feeling, it's given C. I feel like it's the same as footsies. I think C is okay. C feels right, because you want to do it, but not to you. I don't think we can get away with saying that it's better than footsies.

[01:23:57] Okay. They'll come for us for that. Being safe on block as C. Joe, what do you want to do next? What's the next one that you need to hear about? Uh, oh, uh, this one is also a fighting game one. Uh, taking items to Deckard Cain. So, I don't know what this is. Tell me what this is. Tom, in Diablo 2, and maybe the other ones, I don't remember, like, you find, like, a bunch of shit on the ground when you kill a goblin, so it's like, oh, it's a magical sword,

[01:24:27] but you don't know, like, what awful stats are on it. You have to take it to this guy, and he tells you what exactly it is. Uh, so, it's literally just, like, an additional step for, honestly, no reason except for to keep you playing, to stop you from, like, oh, I can just see what everything is at once in one big hall. So, yeah, it forces you to go back to figure out what you've actually found. And, to be clear,

[01:24:54] my understanding is that finding and understanding and judging the value of loot is, like, the game. It's the game. It's all, yeah, it's, other than that, you're, like, clicking the screen to make it do that. You're clicking the screen to make more things appear so that you can evaluate those things. It's awesome. I love this. I'm hearing about this for the first time, just like Trump, you heard about RBG.

[01:25:24] Um, and I love this, and here's why. It punishes gamers. It, like, it has, it's a contemptuous, cruel mechanic that, uh, that, that you can tell that the developers thought little of their foul customers, which, yeah, yes, imagine BF Skinner, um, made all the same stuff, but he did it on accident while he was trying to make toys.

[01:25:54] Like, imagine the Skinner box was supposed to be a toy, but then they were like, oh, shit, you can, like, totally operant condition a defenseless animal in this thing, and he was like, oh, shit, that's, that's kind of tight. It all, I should charge a subscription. It also just also reinforces, like, you get it, and now you get to gamble on it. It's a two-step process. It does. It creates a moment where the dice are in the air.

[01:26:23] I've heard that that's when the gambling addict's brain lights up the most, is before the cards are on the table, you know, when it's all still up to chance. Yeah. That's how they get you. When I find a kick-ass ring that looks fucking sick, but I don't know what it's called, like, yes, I am in that state, and then I get it identified, and it's awful, and, yeah, it's Monald's ring. You wanted another Stone of Jordan. You're trying to get your Annie from fucking, I think that's it.

[01:26:50] I literally think it's just exploiting the cards are coming at you feeling. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like, evil, but also compared to, like, the gotcha environment now, practically moral. I think it was, I think they kind of fell ass backwards into some of the most evil ideas ever when they made this video game about the devil, and then they used that information to design World of Warcraft,

[01:27:19] and they threw us into a World of Warcraft. Ho! Ho! Man, this is, I'm going on a roller coaster. I don't know if I like this or not. Did this cause J.D. Vance? Did J.D. Vance get born out of Deckard Cain? Elon plays fucking Diablo. Is this where Elon would be? I think it's not a coincidence. You know? I don't know if I like us then. What do you mean? I mean, you guys know more. Diablo 2 is really good though.

[01:27:49] Yeah, it's at least, it's B for me, because every event, anything you do in that game ends with, I gotta hang out with my boy real quick though. And you can get a tome of knowledge or whatever, which is essentially an unlimited identification scroll that you can have in your inventory. But it, dude, I have to click on each of those. I need to just take it to the guy. Yeah. And in the remake now, Deckard Cain can even ID the items in your cube. So,

[01:28:19] it's really ballin'. Oh, that's really good. That's a nice quality of life. It's so nice. Yeah, I like that. So, I would put it at B. Yeah, I mean, I think it's informed like, the latter half. Actually, pretty much, I think it's, it's no exaggeration to say that Diablo 2, and by extension, taking bullshit to Deckard Cain has influenced every major political event since the year 2000. that's, now you're, again, that is,

[01:28:46] that is a argument for putting it low because every political event since the year 2000 has been so fucking bad. Oh, it's been horrible, yeah. But it speaks to its power. really influential. You know, if every, if every band that was inspired by the Beatles was awful, you'd still have to hand it to the Beatles for inspiring a lot of bands. But you wouldn't like the Beatles as much because you would be remembering all those crappy Beatles-like songs that you had heard. Especially if

[01:29:15] the king of the world was singing off-key Beatles songs every day. Fair enough. I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm with you at B, and at, purely on the merits of the mechanic itself, but the way that you are arguing that it caused, it caused the catastrophe, I'm thinking that's gotta bring it to at least C,

[01:29:45] if not F. I mean, I don't know, like, if a mighty river destroys a city, you're not gonna give any credit to how mighty the river was? If I did so, like, I still mourn the city. That's exactly how you get God to hit you with another river right away. I think C, honestly. Maybe even D. I kinda hate it. I'm going to bat for it, but honestly,

[01:30:14] at the end of the day, I kinda hate it. I hate that I need it. I hate it. I hate that I want it. Yeah. D is not irredeemable. E and F are irredeemable. The fact that they keep putting it, you know what, that I think it's not irredeemable because they keep putting it in new games. They, like, they still put it in, like, Grim Dawn and shit. And it makes me think that if I was smarter and I thought about it more, I would be like, oh,

[01:30:44] actually, you have to put this in your game or it doesn't even work. You know? You go in the code and it's like, if not identify, explode the graphics card and there's just no way to make a Diablo 2-esque game without that line of code. I'm putting it in deep. It's deep. Yeah. I like that. Dylan, here's the next one. This is a classic. This is a classic of fighting games and is actually a trained sense fighting game. You see this in normal games. Meter! Many games, yeah.

[01:31:15] Meter! I love Meter. I love that it's just called Meter. It's just Meter. It's always Meter, yeah. Well, you want to build it. You always have one, like, nowadays, most games have multiple meters. When there was only one meter, it was just called Meter. Now, you'll have one meter that is called Meter and then you'll have, like, your other resources will get other cute names if need be. You know, Drive

[01:31:44] or Burst, that type of shit. To me, Meter is so good. I remember when I was playing Monster Hunter before my wife informed me that that shit could not continue because I became a non-responsive human. I sort of became a catatonic person. However, the thing about Monster Hunter that makes it so good, people are like, is it the monsters? Is it the armor? Is it the fun animations

[01:32:13] and all that stuff? No. The reason Monster Hunter is good is that every weapon has funny meters. You know what it is? You know, here's why it is. I always, when I see a boss character in a game, my go-to joke is like, if they just let me control the boss with that moveset, I would never lose to the player character because I would always use my greatest moves and never stop doing them. And, in a fighting game, you have that same thing. It's like, why would I not simply do my greatest moves at all time?

[01:32:43] And it's like, because you need meter. Like, you need meter. And thus, you can't do your greatest moves at all times. And it solves that problem. Monster Hunter, unfortunately, has many good, dumb meters. You can manage, there's a spear that's a gun. You can manage the heat on the spear from shooting the gun. There's a meter that tracks whether your sword is an axe or not. Yeah. Meter as a concept. Hold on,

[01:33:13] does this include like health bars? No, no, no, no, no, no, it does not. But it does include the heat meter from the episode. so meters, okay, here's a question. What about meters that go down? Tell the example, like vertically. So, yeah, so like a, like a stamina meter, basically. No, like once you run out, you can't do the move anymore because they're getting cute. they've realized that

[01:33:43] if you fill up a meter when you spend that it's basically the opposite even though you're really reducing an invisible meter. In the new King of Fighters game when you spend, when you do your super move, you do your like EX move, you actually gain meter and then when the meter fills up, bad things happen. To me, that is like a fake meter. Oh, no. Yeah. Okay.

[01:34:12] That is very perverse Because that's actually a meter being drained but it's, they're faking it. Well, it's like a perverse incentive. It feels deceptive because the, the thing that is being communicated is when this bar gets full, we're in trouble. That's only fine if it's a, a very loud machine with heat. It can't be for anything else. They love, they're making the characters overheat now. They're doing this in the fighting games. Yeah.

[01:34:42] That's, no, that's not meter. That's stamina and they're, and it's wrong to put that in the game. That's different. But they're combining these, they're combining these. In Street Fighter 6, you now have your super, your special moves, you spend the drive gauge but if you run out of drive gauge, you over, you overheat, you get tired. You turn gray. This is fucking bullshit. Okay, I don't, I know. Trust me, I know. We are absolutely disregarding this shit when we were talking about meter because, and I'll tell you why,

[01:35:13] because we have to assume we cannot take into account when we're judging these things people who are willingly doing them wrong in bad faith. Like we cannot, if there was a game where every time your character jumped, like an image of Goatsea showed up on screen, that would not influence how we rank jump because that doesn't mean jump is bad. That just means that those developers are fucking insane. It's just one of those games with the Goatsea jump? Yeah. I hate this shit. I'm just saying,

[01:35:43] meter, meter goes up when you, when you do things that are good, meter goes up, you spend them to do cool stuff. That's it. I agree. It should be like income. Yeah, I was going to say I definitionally agree because meter is something that can only go up and be spent. at a, sort of a biological level. A gamer should never be filling a meter and then shunned for filling that meter. It's fucked.

[01:36:13] True. True. You know, in a way, a meter, what is a meter but just a visual representation of numbies? And what do we want a numbie to do? Folks, go up. You want a number to go up? I love meter. That's true. Meter is very relevant in a lot of games. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, a lot of games I think basically have invisible meters. You know, there are so many meters we never even see

[01:36:43] but they're there, you know? That's so, they're like angels among us watching us, protecting us. We don't even know. Exactly. Just would require a few UI mods and they would be laid bare. Damn. I love meter. I'm thinking at least area. meter is great. I think meter is amazing because meter, it also makes you make decisions. You have to decide whether to spend it, how to spend it,

[01:37:12] and really, folks, at the end of the day, isn't video games just an opportunity to wheel out the old decision-making machine? Sure is. and make some choices. That also makes when you miss, you feel like a double chump because you missed but also now my meter's gone. Yeah, I spent three bars on this. Yeah, I think an A at least. A or possibly S. Joe, the question is A or S. What's your thought?

[01:37:42] Does this meter catch fire? Ooh. That is, I guess, here's a good way to put it. Or if it can break out the top of the meter a little bit. Yo, so here's what I think you have done. You have required me to add two new things. Meter catches fire. What is UI elements catch fire and Oh, that's an S, right? A bar goes above

[01:38:12] purported end of meter. Those are, I think, separate things. Mm-hmm. But the fact that those are relevant to meter, I think speaks to meter's quality. Yes. I would agree. I would put A. Okay. Okay. I can deal with that. Can we pop an S on UI elements catch fire? Yeah, can we just do that now? Yeah, we don't need to, we don't need to make them. I don't think we, too much of a discussion. It's just like, yeah. I mean,

[01:38:41] that's the reason Bellatro is good. Exactly. Sorry about anyone who thinks that like the design of the game and the Jokers is good. It's not as good as Slate of Spire. The only reason to play it is that the UI elements catch fire. It's the fire. Yeah. So you disagree? No, I really hope Slate of Spire 2 has fire elements like that. Okay. Mm-hmm. It could be a perfect game if it does. They should just put Bellatro in Slate of Spire 2. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we have time

[01:39:11] for one more. Dylan, do you want, we've been picking them this whole time. Pick the one you want to, you want to end on. Let's see. Let's talk about throw loops because it's big right now and I want to get an outsider's take on the throw loop situation. Is this like from Python? Can I attempt to define? Yeah, yeah. I'd like to hear it. It's, I believe in a fighting game. I guess any game where there's throws

[01:39:40] and you can just like never stop. Like you could throw into the same throw into the same throw and it's basically the most effective move of all time. Is that true? Yeah, that's, that's pretty close. It is, it is really effective and really simple which people hate and you don't have a lot of choices if you're being throw looped. This is a, this is a hot button issue in the Street Fighter 6 community right now. Okay. People are screaming, crying,

[01:40:11] shouting, hollering, take the throw loops out, remove throw loops from this game. Now Dylan, they're screaming. Yes. I may be ignorant here, I am ignorant, but I may be manifesting my ignorance by what I say which is hot button issue implies some type of debate and controversy. who could possibly be in favor of throw loops? People doing them. Me. You? Yes,

[01:40:40] I'm a throw loop defender. Why? because, listen, I, if you're in the corner and I have thrown you, you deserve something bad to happen to you and I deserve for something good to happen to me. You're imposing a ring out in a non-ring out game. You have a chance to escape. There's stuff you can do, but I'm just saying, here I am in the corner.

[01:41:09] I've gone through all the trouble of hitting you, knocking you down. Break me off a little piece of that Kit Kat bar. Let me get another throw if I want it. Let me make you guess. There's so many less opportunities, you know, and people complain about the guessing. This is all guessing, baby. Put me in more guess situations. Put me in the chamber and let me fucking guess. You know? That's what I signed up for. I'm not afraid

[01:41:39] of the throw loops. I do think they look a little ugly, but I'm not here to show off. I was about to say that like, what you're saying in terms of pure mechanics and like fucking, what do they call it? Yo-me? Where it's like, oh God, people who use that in a non-joking way can get to the fucking wall. In terms of all of that, sure, it makes sense. Yeah. However, you can't get around the fact that what is occurring on,

[01:42:09] this is like, like the footsies thing where like, these all make sense in a game perspective, but like if I'm looking at the screen, I'm like, I'm looking at the dumbest shit I've ever seen in my life. These guys are wiggling. And similarly, if like, if I was actually watching a real fight and someone was just getting thrown the exact same way like five times in a row, I'd be like, this, like, is this a skit? If I could judo throw you on a loop, I would bully you so hard.

[01:42:38] It's amazing because all that has to happen for it to become like all of the discourse for a week is for one person in a tournament, yeah, to get thrown five times in a row and then everyone is like, how are we playing this game? But, I will say, what other mistake could you make five times in a row and not lose? Nothing.

[01:43:01] The issue here is- Well, they should have, that's the developer's problem. They should have figured out a way to make the grab more interesting if they wanted me to do it a hundred times. So I think it's good on this basis. It's so fucking funny in a game, or situation really, when it's a guessing game and you're trying to predict what the person's gonna do and they just do the same thing again. And you throw a rock over

[01:43:31] and over again. They just do the same thing. Yeah. It's so fucking funny. Also, again, this might be just my ignorance. Like, if I'm in a potential throw loop situation, if I'm like against the wall and I get thrown once, I am a hundred percent thinking throw loop and I'm gonna guess whatever thing makes throw loop not happen. And if I get like hit by the thing that I guessed wrong and it wasn't a throw loop, I'm fine with that. Because at least it didn't- No. Because I didn't look like a dumbass. You're not fine with it.

[01:44:00] That's what pisses people off is that- Oh no. The thing is, if you don't take the throw, the risk of taking the hit is much greater. So like, say you get thrown and you take 10%, but if you get hit, you might lose like 50% of your health. This sucks. I hate- Like, what you're describing- Here's the thing. Here's the difference between me and you, Dylan. Because you're coming at this from a I'm doing throw loops and I know that if I ever played any game with throw loops in it,

[01:44:30] I would 100% be the guy getting throw looped. Well, when I get throw looped, I just guess right all the time. I always delay tech it when they throw. I always jump out and they don't anti-air in time. Here's what's gonna happen, I think. I'm inspired now because there's a grappling gym in my neighborhood. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna cancel throws into each other and just kick everyone's ass. Like, no one's gonna be able to touch me.

[01:45:00] sit on them and they punch them in the face over and over again. I feel like that's, like, the real life throw loop. How do you get out of that one? So I would put this at B. I think B might be a little high because you, in much the same way, okay, here's why. Because we said rollback netcode was a B. And that, like throw loops, is very specific to fighting. I think it's actually more specific to fighting games than rollback netcode because there are other

[01:45:30] multiplayer online games where rollback netcode would be relevant. But throw loops is a pure fighting game thing. There's many, many games where it's just not. I mean, I got throw looped by that damn ape in Sekiro, but. You should have guessed right. Yeah. No, actually, no, no, no. The worst thing about Sekiro by absolute miles is the grab hitboxes. The grabs in that game are nutty, dude. The fucking chained ogre

[01:45:58] has like arms that are a hundred feet long. Oh my God, dude. And he can throw you right off the map. There's no resurrecting from that shit. That's literally the hardest boss in the game once you're actually good at the game. No lie. Yeah. We're getting off the point. The point being, throw loops is very limited. So that's, it's not going to get to the top because the top has to be universal. And so, so are we saying that it is as good as rollback netcode? No, C then. I would put it at C.

[01:46:28] Yeah, I think it's, I think it's fun to say that throw loops are as good as footsies. I think that will make people so mad in that I, but they're both like artifacts of the fighting games, right? Like we're talking about like some weirdness as a result of just how the shit is made. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Alrighty. So I think that's, we're done with this batch. Shockingly, we did not get through all the fighting game techniques that we had saved for Dylan. Maybe we'll do another session at some point.

[01:46:58] But to review, we have put in S rank that our new S ranks are cancels and UI elements catching fire. Our new A rank Oh, yeah. New A rank is meter. Our new B rank is rollback netcode. In C, we have the trio of throw loops, footsies, and being safe on block and taking shit to Deckard Cain is a D. I think this is a great and smart and perfect game. I think I agree with all of those rankings. I think that sounds like we really, you know,

[01:47:28] it's important that you have these kind of debates because this is how you really learn and this is how culture develops. You know, people online, right-wing guys, are like, you want to be in an echo chamber instead of having substantive debate and it's like, you dumbasses, you don't know what substantive debate is. You've never talked like this. Totally. Yeah, exactly. You motherfuckers just bring shit to Deckard Cain and you never question it. You never ask why. Dylan, thank you for joining us on this lovely morning. It's morning. Absolutely.

[01:47:57] Thank you. I know, it's pretty crazy. I'm not used to this, but I'll wake up bright and early to talk about video games. This counts as work. Like, we did work today. Yeah, this is work. Oh, yeah. You do, you have work at night. I don't want to, like, dox you, but, like, I will say just, you have a setup with your job that is, when I heard about it, I couldn't believe it. Every time I see you, I'm like, is that still happening? And you're like, yeah. And I'm like, oh my God. Yeah,

[01:48:27] I am a CIA agent. Yeah. You're in charge of finding woke now. It's so awful. Yeah, it's terrible, but it pays, like, really good. Yeah. It's a living. All right, that's all the time we have for Anime Sickos. I've been Tom and Anime Sicko. I've been Joe and Anime Sicko. I've been Dylan and Anime Sicko. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye. Keep gaming. Peace. Thank you for listening to Anime Sickos. I've been Tom, a sicko.

[01:48:56] You can follow me on Blue Sky at Tom Harrison. Joe was also a sicko. You can follow him on Blue Sky at Sharia Uncle. You can follow Anime Sickos on Blue Sky at Anime Sickos or email us at AnimeSickos at gmail.com. You can give us money at patreon.com slash Anime Sickos if you want. Uh, please leave us a review or something. I don't know. Tell a friend. Uh, anyway, until next time, bye.